At the end of our strategy debrief, after I discussed what people typically do before they make a decision to reach out for business help, he said, “I was stalking you for nine months before I pulled the trigger.”
Why Your Strategy is Dead – EP. 13
Rethink Your Strategy and Get To It
Can we talk about your business strategy coming into a post-pandemic economy? In this week’s episode, I sat down for a candid talk with the brilliantly innovative owner of Flowers Talk Tivoli, Elizabeth Young. We are unpacking how she dug in and got creative to pull her flower shop through a global crisis, and we’re giving you ideas on how you can move into this new economy with confidence, too.
Hear what helped Elizabeth keep her business focused through fear, ever-changing Covid-19 protocols, being alone in her shop to fulfill orders, 80% of her flower supply disappearing overnight, and going from crickets to a boom in the demand for her shop’s products.
I can’t wait for you to hear Elizabeth’s advice on how to move out of analysis paralysis and let your creativity take the wheel to develop and execute new products and services. As well, if you’re a high-touch kind of business with a lot of in-store customers, you might want to listen carefully to how Elizabeth took her interactive, highly personal approach, and brought it online.
If you’re a high-touch business with lots of in-store customers, you'll want to listen carefully to how Elizabeth took her interactive, highly personal approach, and brought it online. Click To TweetOh, and if we’ve given you a craving for a bouquet of beautiful flowers (and you’re in the Ottawa, Canada area) you can always reach out to Elizabeth at FlowersTalk.ca.
What’s in This Episode
- Ideas on how to thrive in business post-pandemic
- The genius behind moving live workshops online
- When to make your crazy idea a fantastic business venture
- How to adapt to a huge economic change (like a pandemic!)
- What to do when your business becomes the target of haters
- How to keep your focus when everyone else is afraid or falling apart
- Tips on finding the “new normal” that’s right for your business
- How to shift your die-hard, in-store clients to online customers
What To Do Next
- Sign up to be notified when I run the next Roadmap Workshop.
- Subscribe to receive this podcast and regular weekly strategies to grow and shape your business. You’ll also be the first to know about upcoming courses, programs and exclusive LIVE training.
- Connect on Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn and share your insights from the show.
- Join Thought Readers and connect with other like-minded entrepreneurs in this popular book club for business owners.
Up Next
This season’s talk about business strategy has sparked some brilliant listener questions. Tune in to episode 14, Strategy Mash Up to hear them answered and take a deeper look at the intricacies of creating the right strategy for your business.
Where to Find Elizabeth Young of Flowers Talk Tivoli
Episode Transcript
CLICK HERE TO OPEN THE FULL TRANSCRIPT
Lisa Larter (00:01):
Welcome to, She Talks Business. If you’re an entrepreneur, business owner or aspiring mogul, chances are you want to learn more about marketing and mastering and monetizing your business. She Talks Business is where you’ll learn all of that and more. My name is Lisa Larter and I’m an entrepreneur, high school dropout, wiener dog enthusiast and your host. Let’s get started.
Lisa Larter (00:25):
All right. So can we talk about your strategy and what it means to have a strategy before a pandemic hits and what the heck you should do once that pandemic hits and what you should do if you own a retail brick-and-mortar store and now all of a sudden, everything has changed. This week on the show, I am having a candid conversation with a long-time business advisory, client of mine, Elizabeth Young, from Flowers Talk Tivoli in Ottawa, Canada.
Lisa Larter (00:59):
Elizabeth Young is a rockstar. All right. She is… How would I describe Elizabeth? She is fiercely loyal. She is not one of the loudest people in the room, but she is one of the most contemplative and creative and quietly courageous people I know. She is also one of the hardest working women I know. She is never afraid to work long hours and do what it takes to build her business. She’s also created some flowers for some pretty important people like Oprah Winfrey, Michelle Obama, Sarah Richardson, Hillary Clinton. She has been in the industry for years.
Lisa Larter (01:43):
Her business, although, she doesn’t even look this old, is 33 years old. I think, she’s the second owner of this business. She bought this business seven years ago, but prior to that, she ran her own floral shop called Flowers Talk, and then she acquired Flowers Talk Tivoli. She is a well-known personality on the news in the Ottawa area. And she is probably one of the most generous people in the community I know. She regularly participates in fundraisers and giving back to the community.
Lisa Larter (02:22):
So you’re going to learn a lot in this interview about what it takes to adapt your business during a pandemic, how to brush off the naysayers, how to let the people who are throwing darts at you just fall to the floor and keep your focus on what matters most, and how you need to think about the future and make your own decisions about what your new normal in business looks like. Enjoy the show. And if you can hear my husband in the background, making coffee and pouring water, I’m sorry.
Lisa Larter (03:02):
Hello, hello, hello. I almost forgot to bring my microphone close to my face. That is a podcasting faux pas to be so presumptive that my mic can carry my voice from far, far, far away. We are here today with the one and only the super fantabulous, Elizabeth Young. I have known Elizabeth for a number of years. She can tell you a really funny story about a text message that I sent her many years ago before she knew who I really was threatening to kick her, you know what? And I am proud to call this woman, a client, a colleague, a friend, and one of the most creative, one of the most courageous business owners that I know. Elizabeth, welcome to the show.
Elizabeth Young (03:57):
Oh, thank you so, so much, Lisa. I’m so honored that you asked me to be on your podcast. When you told me you were starting this, I was like, “Oh, one day, one day.” So thank you. Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.
Lisa Larter (04:08):
Well, the purpose of this podcast, and originally, it was going to be a solo, that I was going to do on my own, really talking about why your strategy is dead. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, if there’s one person that I know who has exemplified innovative, courageous, bold thinking throughout the pandemic and leading out of the pandemic, it’s you. And I thought it would be really interesting for us to have a conversation about where things were at pre-pandemic, some of the decisions you made during the pandemic, and what we predict may happen post-pandemic.
Elizabeth Young (04:53):
Oh, yeah.
Lisa Larter (04:54):
So let’s just go back a little bit. And I still remember when all of this COVID stuff first hit, you own a bricks-and-mortar flower shop. And I remember the panicked call you and I had when you weren’t sure if you were going to be allowed to keep your business open.
Elizabeth Young (05:20):
Exactly, exactly. That was scary and surreal, all at the same time. There was everything going on in the world, but then there was everything going on with business. So we decided to close for curbside pickup and delivery the week before we were deemed non-essential. And really most of the decisions I make in my business, I do get so much feedback from my team. So it’s really, they’re my family. They’re my designers. They are the talent. They’re the core of the business.
Elizabeth Young (05:58):
And so when all of this was coming about and things, talk about being shut down and announcements coming out, it was really the decision to close before we were deemed non-essential because of the comfort level of my team. So a week before the announcement came out, we decided to close. And we were just, not close, but sorry, do curbside pickup and do deliveries. So over the phone and online. And that week was scary. It was crickets. No one had heard of what curbside pickup was at that point. People weren’t as comfortable to shop online. So that first week was very scary. We got a lot of painting done and a lot of cleaning done in that store.
Lisa Larter (06:41):
Well, and then you went through a period where you were basically the only person working in the store.
Elizabeth Young (06:47):
Yes. Yes.
Lisa Larter (06:48):
Because I remember your team was a little bit scared of what was going on, rightfully so. A lot of people were scared. And I also remember you, and I remember you saying something to me about people’s mental health and how flowers make people feel good. And we can’t not allow people to send flowers to the people that they want to make feel good. People can’t be with their family members in hospitals. People can’t go. So you were really adamant that you would not let the lifeline of giving be cut off.
Elizabeth Young (07:30):
100%. I felt, and it could be my little happy flower world, but I felt that flowers were more essential than fast food. So I knew that people needed them and people were not able to physically connect with each other. And flowers really do talk. Sending flowers from one end of the city to the other can change a whole person’s week, it can change their outlook, it can change the way they look at themselves, the way they treat other people. I just knew that we needed to keep getting beautiful things out into the world so that there was some sense of normalcy for people.
Lisa Larter (08:08):
And your peers who own flower stores in the city weren’t all supportive of your decision to boldly lead this way.
Elizabeth Young (08:23):
Exactly. And Lisa, you know exactly what it’s like to be a change maker, right? You like to come up with ideas and just go for it. And people can get maybe jealous of that. People can get scared of that because maybe they didn’t think of it first. But I felt that the beginning of the pandemic was not the time, personally, for me and for my business to put the brakes on. It was the time to put your pedal on the gas and just hold on and go for it. So there were a lot of haters, there were, but there were a couple of really great supporters. And I had a couple of colleagues in the floral world that I was able to call on for help. And that’s what helped get me through it.
Elizabeth Young (09:08):
And you can’t stay closed forever. The haters ended up turning around and they opened up in time for Mother’s Day, but there was that period of time from March to Mother’s Day that we were one of the only operating flower shops in the city. My team was at home. They felt more comfortable being at home. They checked in with me every little bit and I felt it was best to work with their comfort level, have my team at home, and I was the only person in my store. So the couriers would pick up at the back of my store. I’d be nowhere near them. My delivery companies would drop flowers outside of the store. So I felt that I was very safe with the public. I felt I was keeping the public safe, but a lot of people didn’t think that was the case, but they turned around when it came time to open up for some of those big holidays, which is understandable.
Lisa Larter (10:04):
So I want to acknowledge you because I think that you really acted boldly in terms of how you chose to lead your business. There were a lot of people that chose not to act boldly. There were a lot of people that were seeking permission. There were a lot of people that were sitting at home waiting. And it’s interesting, I just wrote a blog called If It Matters, You Will Find A Way, And If It Doesn’t, You’ll Find An Excuse. And I think that you really exemplified leading your business during this challenge. So talk to me a little bit about some of the things that you did in terms of creating a different offering. Because prior to COVID, 90, 95% of your business was walk-in, was it not?
Elizabeth Young (10:59):
Yes, it was. Yeah, walk-in and that big floral cooler right in the middle of our store. And it was usually having a lineup on Mother’s Day, lineup at Easter for people to come in and see everything. So we, and a huge thanks to you too. You were there, you were my sounding board. “Am I crazy? Am I nuts? You think I can do this?” And you were just encouraging, encouraging, encouraging, which is, I’m forever grateful. And we had some great resources. So we were able to get every single, pretty much every single item that we sell in our store up on our website in a very short period of time.
Elizabeth Young (11:37):
So we worked with a really fantastic web team to be able to do that. And we had already had a very great website before, but it just had very minor offerings. Now, we put up all of our giftware, all of our plants, all of that, but we also really honed in on less choices for people for floral. So instead of having every flower that we have in the cooler, we had ideas and snippets and price points, just a small offering that made it less confusing for people. Though I realized we didn’t need to offer A to Z, offering ABC would work really, really well for us. And I think that simplified the confusion for people. And I think it made ordering online a lot easier for them.
Lisa Larter (12:25):
For sure. You made it super, super easy for people to buy, but I think the other thing that you were doing that people probably didn’t realize is you were adapting to your ever-changing supply chain, right?
Elizabeth Young (12:39):
Yeah.
Lisa Larter (12:39):
Getting flowers became problematic for you too, did it not?
Elizabeth Young (12:44):
Huge impact. So a lot of the, 80% of the flowers that usually would come in would be coming in from Colombia, Ecuador, Thailand, Holland, all over the world. And those flights were just not coming in. And those farms were heavily impacted. And the whole supply chain has just gone almost to a grinding halt. And we’re going to see the effects of COVID in the floral industry and the supply chain for probably a good couple more years. So even this year for Mother’s Day, there were not the same offerings that there were in the past because those farms were unable to plant those flowers last year. And all those flights were not coming in, but we were able to still receive beautiful flowers, but we were able to receive flowers from the Niagara area because they were not going to shut down agriculture.
Elizabeth Young (13:40):
And so the growers there in the, sorry, in Niagara, really came through for all of the flower shops. We had the most beautiful selection and it was all Canadian made. So it’s really made me shift our flower dollar into more of the Canadian market now than the overseas. So that excites me a lot to see how we can support those fellow Canadian growers and those suppliers that were able to support those farmers have our business forever.
Lisa Larter (14:14):
Yeah. It was a great example of local supporting local, meaning local within the country supporting local businesses. And there’s just so many great stories of business owners who rose to the occasion during the pandemic. I want to just ask you, percentage-wise, what was the, what would you say your average percentage of growth or decline was through the COVID season?
Elizabeth Young (14:44):
Oh, growth. We grew. So because we didn’t close the first six weeks or so, we were up, I’d say, we’re up about 20% or so. And everything was online.
Lisa Larter (15:02):
Yes.
Elizabeth Young (15:04):
So scale is handful [crosstalk 00:15:05].
Lisa Larter (15:04):
That’s huge. That’s huge.
Elizabeth Young (15:05):
That is huge. That is huge. Because I had a lot of inventory. I had a full team that I needed to have a place for them to come home to. So I’m very happy, all the support from the neighborhood, and even the support from people who’ve never physically stepped foot into our store still felt comfortable purchasing from us online. So without that, we wouldn’t be here. So I’m forever grateful for all those fantastic orders and fantastic customers.
Lisa Larter (15:37):
You also did, so you led the industry in a bunch of ways. You led with curbside pickup and delivery. You led with giftware. You led with transitioning to a simplified online model. You led with adding on through your online model, but you also led by hosting workshops. And I thought you were crazy. I had to tell you, the first time you told me you had to do workshops, I was like, “Alright, try it. You never know.” How did that go?
Elizabeth Young (16:07):
Oh, that was, oh, [crosstalk 00:16:09].
Lisa Larter (16:11):
You are like the Martha Stewart of the floral industry. You’re famous for your workshop.
Elizabeth Young (16:15):
It’s been fun, but man, the thought process, I did not put it all into place, really, to be honest. I hosted my first workshop live without ever hosting a Zoom meeting before. So it was hilarious. So we used to do workshops in the shop. They were just this fun get together, have a small group of people, some men, some women, some family members, mothers, daughters, all that. So I just loved bringing people together and doing something creative. And I love interacting with people. I love teaching people. I love when I get to see someone’s beautiful creation at the end of a workshop. And so I felt that was missing. And on top of having the store closed, not closed, sorry, curbside pickup and delivery, and me being by myself, I decided to start hosting virtual workshops on Facebook Live.
Elizabeth Young (17:13):
So I’d send out a couple of kits, and if you wanted to watch me do it without buying a kit, then watch me do it without buying a kit. Like, “Let’s bring a little bit of creativity into people’s lives.” And the feedback I was getting from people was like, “This is really great. I’d like to be able to see what the other people are making or things like that.” So I went ahead with our fall workshops that I normally would have carried in the store, but I offered them virtually. So we started shipping our kits across Ontario, certain kits that were perishable levels. And shipping those across Ontario, and then just people in the city wanting to do them. And it just became this thing, and people looked forward to it and they looked forward to creating something really beautiful that they could be proud of.
Elizabeth Young (18:02):
And it was great when at the end of it I’d hear from people, “That was my favorite Zoom meeting of the week.” Or, “Oh, I just, it felt so good. This was me time. After I worked all day and put the kids to bed, I’m able to hop on and watch this recording because I couldn’t watch it live. And thank you so much.” And it just became this community. And I love it. I love doing my workshops online, and I don’t know if I’m ever going to go back to hosting them in the shop. I like the reach that we have this way.
Lisa Larter (18:31):
Yeah. And not only, I mean, a, it was a really, really great business idea to do that. B, people were bored silly at home. So you really did give them a creative outlet. And, c, it became a wave of marketing for you because everybody who was sharing what they were creating. And then, because it was becoming so popular, you started having corporations reach out to you to do private workshops too.
Elizabeth Young (19:02):
Yeah. I love that. That’s fun. And I think that’s something that will continue. And our shop is very small. It’s very small. It’s very, very, very full. So I can only host a maximum of 12 people in my store tightly for an in-person workshop. So corporations have larger groups. So this is great. And people can do this from the comfort of their home, or it’s great because, “Grab your favorite bottle of wine, or grab your spouse or your kids join in.” So it was neat to be able to see them, colleagues together, and it’s like, they hadn’t been together doing something creative in such a long time. So that’s a real fun thing that we started doing. I’m really excited about where that’s going to go in 2021 and 2022.
Lisa Larter (19:47):
Yeah, I love it. But what I really want listeners to take away from this is sometimes you just have to have the courage to lead. You have to put blinders on and pave the way for you. And just because somebody else is saying, “Oh, you shouldn’t be open. Oh, you shouldn’t be doing that. Oh, workshops aren’t going to work.” You are an entrepreneur. And when you have an idea, and you’re passionate and committed about seeing it through, sometimes you got to trust yourself and just not listen to those naysayers.
Lisa Larter (20:25):
I mean, Liz, I’ve seen you do that, Elizabeth, sorry, for those of you listening. You’re not, it’s Elizabeth, unless you are in the inner circle, which I know I am. If you have ideas and you are waiting for somebody to give you permission, you’re never going to lead. And you have just done that over and over and over again. What other really interesting things have happened in the year of the pandemic that you’d like to share with people? Is there anything else?
Elizabeth Young (20:59):
Oh, so much has happened. Wow. And I can’t believe it’s been on this long. And while this is being recorded, our area is opening up to a 15% capacity. And I’ve made the decision to keep curbside pickup, keep delivery, and not open up, to that 15%. Not because we don’t want to have people in the shop. I would love to have people in the shop, but just the number of team members that we need to be able to create all these beautiful arrangements would only allow for one person in the shop. And our customers don’t want to line up. So I’m finding that curbside pickup and delivery, people are finding it so convenient.
Elizabeth Young (21:40):
So people are back-to-back meetings right now. They want to be able to get something when they want it. They just have to place their order ahead of time. And they like being able to just come, pick up their arrangement and go. So this may change the way we do business in the future. We may be eliminating those lineups at the major holidays and things like that. I don’t think curbside pickup will ever go away for us. I think it’s going to make it a lot easier and more convenient for people to be able to do that. We’ve expanded our home decor line immensely. We weren’t able to go shopping and people want to support local, yes, I know you can buy quite a few of our things from the big online distributors, but it goes back to the people and the relationships and people really want to support local. And so they’re purchasing our decor pieces. People have signed up for receiving flowers weekly for themselves just to be able to make their space more beautiful, right?
Lisa Larter (22:40):
Oh, sign me up. I know. I wish I was in the city and I could get your flowers weekly because your designs are just outstanding.
Elizabeth Young (22:49):
Oh, I would love to be able to send flowers to you weekly. Eventually, we’ll see, we’ll see. Flower shipping scares me a little bit, perishable. And also with all the shipping delays and everything like that, it gets a little scary. But we’re just trying to think of new things and opening up to new ideas and new lines and trying to find local artisans, local makers, to be able to support them also. So that’s really what we’ve been able to do in the last, however long it’s been. It feels like 18 months. I don’t know. It’s less than that, but just try new things. And this has given us the opportunity to expand and try new things, get in a new line of something, if it doesn’t work, it’s not the end of the world. Just do it. That’s what we’ve been doing, just doing it.
Lisa Larter (23:37):
Yeah. You absolutely have been doing it. And what advice would you give for business owners that are potentially afraid to break the rules? Because even when we were looking at the guidelines around whether you were considered essential or not, it wasn’t expressly clear. And so you were prepared that somebody could come knocking on the door and say, “You’re not allowed to be open.” So where did you find the audacity to do things your own way? And what would you say to other business owners who maybe are feeling like they can’t bend the rules?
Elizabeth Young (24:22):
I felt the rules weren’t clear. I truly believed I wasn’t breaking the rules. I was very, very careful as far as the safety of my team, again, at home. And then when they came back, there was no contact with the public at all, unless it was over the phone. And since e-commerce was allowed to operate, since those big box retailers online were able to deliver overnight, then I didn’t see the difference between them and me to be honest. And I didn’t overthink it. So if I had gotten into my head too much, it would have scared me enough to not do it, but it scared me more of the potential of not doing it. It scared me more that I wouldn’t be able to make payroll. It scared me more than I wouldn’t be able to sell all the products in my store. That I wouldn’t have a home for my team to come back to. So you can’t overthink it and you can’t let people get into your head, and don’t ask every single person for their opinion. Look to the people that can give you guidance.
Lisa Larter (25:36):
And that’s so good.
Elizabeth Young (25:37):
I have you. You’re my mentor. I can ask you. You’re an educated, brilliant business woman, I can ask you your advice. I can ask my husband, I trust his advice. I’m not going to ask Joe Blow off the street, or I’m not going to ask maybe another shop that has decided not to open. I’m going to look and seek advice from a few handful of people that I truly admire and appreciate their opinion. And if they disagree with me, that is completely their opinion and I’m okay. And I’ve learned to be okay with that, but my gut told me that I could do this. My gut told me I needed to do it. And I’ll go down with the Titanic. That’s just me.
Lisa Larter (26:22):
So the irony is we were together with a group of individuals, actually, you and I spent a half day together, the month before this all went down, creating a brilliant strategy for your business for the upcoming year that literally went out the window. And so I’m curious as to what you think about your business strategy moving forward. As the market starts to open up, what do you believe will be your business’s new normal?
Elizabeth Young (26:58):
That is a great question. And I feel like I, we did, we had that great little plan. We created a beautiful color-coded template. We knew where I was going to head for the next year and then boom, COVID hit. And it actually propelled me forward into a couple of those ideas that we had about how, “Oh, I’d like to get more online. I’d like to do more home decor. I’d like to do this.” And then it was like, “Boom, Elizabeth, it’s sink or swim. Let’s do this.” So it did catapult some of those ideas to start a little bit forward, but as far as the strategy moving forward, I don’t have my head wrapped around a strategy for a year yet because I feel like we’ve been working in phases of the lockdown.
Elizabeth Young (27:43):
So it’s almost like I have to work myself in quarters, and I’m redesigning my whole store so that I can allow for better customer service for customers once they’re able to come in, more space for my staff, more room for online orders, more space for curbside pickup. So we’re physically changing the way we will be welcoming people into the store and we will be streamlining our options as well. So there will be a lot, it sounds weird, there’ll be a lot less options, but a lot more options. If that makes sense.
Elizabeth Young (28:23):
And then as far as where we are spending our floral dollars, as far as our suppliers and things like that, we’ll be supporting a lot more of those local growers. And I’ve just seen different spikes in different areas of things that we carry that maybe we’ll focus on some of those a little bit more, and less on some of the other things that weren’t doing so well in the shop.
Lisa Larter (28:51):
I love what you said though about looking at your strategy from a 90-day perspective. I think that, in the strategy lab, what I’m trying to do is I’m trying to help people actually do that really, look at the year, but break it down into the quarter and then focus on getting things done each month. I think that if I would say anything, what COVID did is it allowed you to think less and do more. So you were able to take an idea and not overthink it, and not get stuck in analysis paralysis. It was like there was a fire underneath you. There was a sense of urgency to get it done now. And I think that that’s really great learning because I think what you can see when you look back at how you had a bit of a just-do-it attitude, when you trusted your gut and your intuition, and you just got things off the ground, they took off.
Lisa Larter (29:50):
Whereas, a lot of times what we do is we obsess over every single detail and we overcomplexify our strategy and we sit on it and we don’t take action, we don’t get any lift or momentum because we make it too difficult. So I think that for anyone listening, if you have a business right now, start playing the short game. One of the things that I like to talk about is making big, small. So when you take a big idea and you break it down into really small actionable steps, you can actually get it done a lot faster. I agree with you though, Elizabeth, I don’t think that the new normal, I don’t think that we are ever going back to normal. I think there’s going to be new normals in terms of how we do things.
Lisa Larter (30:39):
I think that you have taken a consumer base that was 90% or 95% retail store foot traffic, and you have transitioned to a 100% online with a 20% growth factor. That’s huge. So you have literally educated people on how to make buying decisions in your market online, and you can’t take that away from them once they’ve learned and adapted to doing things this way.
Elizabeth Young (31:12):
I agree with you. I agree, 100%. And it’s exactly what you always say. And it was in my head every time I did something, done is better than perfect. If I waited till everything was absolutely perfect, everything was perfectly tweaked, I wouldn’t have been selling anything. I started, before we had everything up on the website, I started just selling things off of Instagram. And it was like, “I’ve got this, I’ve got this. You want this? We’ve got this. This has got to go.” And if I waited and uploaded everything beautifully to the website and took all the measurements, all that, those items would still be in my store.
Elizabeth Young (31:46):
So yeah, done is better than perfect. I had never done Facebook Live before. I was terrified. I had never done Instagram Live before. I never wanted to show my face, but people want to see people and they want to see the people behind the product that they’re creating for you. So that’s another thing too, is that, if you wait till your hair is perfect, if you wait until your outfit is perfect, you’ll never jump on a Facebook Live and people won’t be able to buy what you’re offering.
Lisa Larter (32:16):
Yeah, absolutely. I think, especially in the creative space, artistry, floral design, even restaurants, I think people really are wanting to know who the people are behind the business today. I think it’s a really important point. I still remember one of your first little videos. You’re literally dancing and we can just see your apron and your feet going in the store. You were working by yourself and you were working killer hours. And I mean, speaking of killer hours, talk to me about Mother’s Day, how late were you at your shop?
Elizabeth Young (32:56):
This year or last year?
Lisa Larter (32:57):
This year.
Elizabeth Young (33:00):
This year. This year, thank you for texting me and making sure I got home ok. This year I worked, there was three hours sleep nights, but we had to get it done. And I would much prefer-
Lisa Larter (33:14):
Can I stop you for a second? There was a three-hour sleep night. There are three-hour sleep nights. And yet there have been customers who have read you the Riot Act because they couldn’t get same day delivery done. Do you think that the public as a whole, I know there are exceptions, I know that the vast majority of your customer base has been great, but do you think the public as a whole has any idea how hard it has been behind the scenes to do what you’ve done?
Elizabeth Young (33:50):
I don’t think so. I honestly, I don’t think so. I don’t know if this whole pandemic has made people more empathetic or not, but I’m seeing a lot of just meanness on social. And I feel that we don’t have to, we don’t personally, but I feel like we don’t have to keep posting, be kind, be kind, because that should just be normal human behavior to be kind, but we’re not a food delivery service that can be an app that you can have within 15 minutes at your door. We have hardworking designers behind that product that need to process those flowers, to clean those flowers, to hydrate those flowers, create that beautiful design for you.
Elizabeth Young (34:32):
So we will do everything we can, everything in our power to get something for somebody immediately. And it’s special case-by-case as well, but there are some… So we can look at all those beautiful, beautiful messages.
Lisa Larter (34:47):
I just don’t think people would imagine their local florist, the owner of their local flower shop, the 100% women-owned floral shop being at her business until two o’clock in the morning because there was no way that she was going to, a, make her team work extra hard the next day. And she wanted to get ahead of the curve so that Mother’s Day orders could be delivered on time as planned. I feel like I’m your cheerleader because I am, but I think for the listeners, what I really want you to get out of this show is, it takes a lot of damn hard work. It’s not easy. It might look easy on the surface. It’s not easy to make decisions and have your colleagues throw darts at you and say mean things about you on Facebook in front of other people.
Lisa Larter (35:48):
It’s not easy to have customers respond to your email about choosing not to open and criticize your judgment. It’s not easy to have to find new suppliers in the middle of a pandemic because the ones you’ve relied on for years can’t deliver. It’s not easy to adjust your product mix to figure out how to keep your store afloat. It’s not easy to stay at your shop till the wee hours. It’s not easy to fulfill orders all by yourself. And so I think that a lot of times as business owners, we get into business sometimes because we want things to be easier. And a lot of people quit their boss. They don’t quit their job. They think it’s going to be easier.
Lisa Larter (36:36):
And I think that the lesson of all of this is there are people that chose to not necessarily work as hard. And there are some people, I just want to be really clear to those of you who are listening. There are some people that had absolutely no choice. I mean, I have a client who is in the swim school space, and God loved them, every time they turned around, they were not allowed to offer lessons. And so, they literally had zero control. You can’t exactly teach kids how to swim without a pool. And in the middle of the winter, you can’t exactly teach them how to swim from home using Zoom.
Lisa Larter (37:18):
There are some legitimate businesses out there that were handcuffed. And my heart goes out to the restaurant industry more than anything, because some of those restaurant owners, they would do anything to keep their team employed, but the, “Oh, you’re open. Oh, you’re closed. Oh, you’re open.”
Elizabeth Young (37:37):
Oh, closed. Opened, closed.
Lisa Larter (37:37):
The zigzag of all that was just awful for them. But then there are people out there that I think really looked for the opportunity and people that looked for the out. And looking for the opportunity and doing what it takes to really stick with it and grow your business when times are tough, is not easy to do. It’s hard.
Elizabeth Young (38:03):
Oh, it’s easier to binge watch Netflix.
Lisa Larter (38:06):
Way easier to binge watch Netflix and apply for sub. Like, “Give me the free money from the government and let me sit at home.” I mean, yes, it’s easier to do that, but the people that choose to really step up and do the hard work are the people that are going to reap the rewards like you have. And Elizabeth, I’ve known you for a long time and you, I would say you are not a confrontational person.
Elizabeth Young (38:39):
Not at all.
Lisa Larter (38:41):
You are a very kind-hearted, loyal, empathetic, caring-
Elizabeth Young (38:48):
People pleaser.
Lisa Larter (38:48):
… People person. And I know that making some of these decisions was, you had to wrestle with some of those decisions. And I love that you were determined to have a business that your team could come back to. I know that you were determined to create an environment that was safe for your team and your customers. And I knew that you were determined to ensure that people were still able to get your product. And I think that that passion and commitment, really, and that determination for other people is what helped you continue to move forward.
Elizabeth Young (39:33):
Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that.
Lisa Larter (39:39):
I don’t know what else to ask you. Other than, what are you going to do if there’s a fourth wave? No, I shouldn’t even ask that question. That’s crazy because-
Elizabeth Young (39:48):
No. That’s in my head. We’re just going to keep rolling. And if we need to be closed for another six months, then we’ll be, sorry, I keep saying close. We’re not closed. We’re curbside pickup and delivery. So we’ll keep doing it. So this business is 33 years old. And when I bought it, seven years ago, after having my flower shop, it’s not just me. It’s not my flower shop. This flower shop belongs to my team. This flower shop belongs to this amazing community that we’re so lucky to have our store in. So we’re going to do everything we can to keep everybody safe.
Elizabeth Young (40:30):
If there is another wave, let’s hope not, but we’ll just keep operating the way we are. All my team have decided to get vaccinated. It wasn’t even a question for them. They’re excited to get their second doses. I’m excited for them to feel more comfortable when it is time to reopen. But if there is another wave, we’re just going to roll with it.
Lisa Larter (40:52):
Awesome. Any parting advice for business owners in terms of what you have learned over the past year?
Elizabeth Young (41:03):
Oh, what have I learned? Consistency is key. It’s easy to not put that blog out. It’s easy to not write that newsletter, but put it out there every single week and show up for your community, and you don’t know that people want to buy from you. And there’s the old saying, “People want to know, they want to buy from who they like, know and trust.” Put your face out there. Make those relationships. So make it a Facebook Live, make an Instagram Live. Just put yourself out there, even though it is extremely uncomfortable. And as Nike says, “Just do it.” Jump in. Don’t overthink it, but follow your gut. If your gut tells you, it’s not a good idea. It’s not a good idea. But if those ideas that are in your head are keeping you awake at night because your legs are twitching because you’re so excited about your idea, do it and only look for certain people’s advice. Don’t let everybody else inside your head.
Lisa Larter (42:07):
Yeah. That is really smart advice. Don’t let the naysayers pick away at your brain. So Elizabeth owns Flowers Talk Tivoli in Ottawa, the capital of Canada. If you need flowers, she is your go-to girl. I can tell you, she has done flowers for some pretty impressive people. I don’t like to name drop, but there’s an Oprah Winfrey and Michelle Obama, Sarah Richardson, Hillary Clinton. And I’m sure there’s a whole bunch of other people that are not as well known, but are celebrities that she has done flowers for. But I will tell you, the people that she cares about most are the people in her community. So thank you for being with us Elizabeth and continuing success in your business.
Elizabeth Young (42:56):
Thank you. Thank you so, so much. This was so much fun. Thanks, Lisa.
Lisa Larter (43:01):
You’re welcome. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. You know the drill, if you enjoyed this show, if you learned something, if you’re feeling inspired or fired up about doing things your own way in your business, let me know. Leave us a review, share this episode with somebody who can learn from Elizabeth’s brilliance and keep on listening. We’ve got a summer of reading coming up soon, and I’m going to share some of my favorite books with you. And then I’m going to share some author interviews that I have done for our thought readers community that you are going to love.
Lisa Larter (43:40):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of She Talks Business. If you enjoyed the show, you know the drill, leave us a review, tell someone about it and join the conversation on social media. Thanks for listening and until next time remember, done is always better than perfect.
The Role of Leadership in Your Business Strategy – EP. 12
Lead Like Your Business Depends On It
Jackie Foo was my first boss at Clearnet (before it was TELUS), and the way she modelled leadership forever altered the way I lead in my business and coach others to lead in their businesses.
Tune in to hear Jackie and I get real about what it takes to lead, really lead, in your business and how the simple act of learning to bring out the best in people can grow your profit and change the lives of your team members, your clients and impact the legacy you leave. We also talk about how to build the right team to fulfill your business vision and the art of hiring for your gaps.
Hear the story of the first time Jackie sat in on a final warning conversation I had with an employee and how, when the employee left and I was sure I had done a less-than-perfect job, she floored me with her feedback. Learn what Jackie refers to as her 1-10 Rule for giving feedback that not only offers a team member ways to improve, change or refine, but also builds a strong relationship of trust and partnership between you and them.
Do you see mistakes, or do you see the good people on your team are doing? In episode 12 of #SheTalksBusiness, Jackie gives fantastic advice on how to train yourself to do both. Click To TweetDo you see mistakes, or do you see the good people on your team are doing? Jackie gives fantastic advice on how to train yourself to do both.
What’s in This Episode
- How to lead in a way that inspires and gets results
- Jackie Foo’s 1-10 Rule for feedback
- How to build the right team for your business vision
- The two things you need to give your team every day
- Tips for keeping the A-players on your team
- The difference between a ‘busy list’ and a priority list
What To Do Next
- Sign up to be notified when I run the next Roadmap Workshop.
- Subscribe to receive this podcast and regular weekly strategies to grow and shape your business. You’ll also be the first to know about upcoming courses, programs and exclusive LIVE training.
- Connect on Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn and share your insights from the show.
- Join Thought Readers and connect with other like-minded entrepreneurs in this popular book club for business owners.
Up Next
A timely episode indeed! In Your Strategy is Dead: Why What Worked Before Won’t Work Now, Get in the arena with Flowers Talk Tivoli’s Elizabeth Young and I as we look back on how she not only made it through the Covid-19 pandemic but saw her business thrive! Listen in as we brainstorm the best way to bring her flower shop into the post-Covid economy.
Books Mentioned in This Episode
- The Path of Least Resistance for Managers by Robert Fritz
- Pilot to Profit by Lisa Larter
- The ONE Thing by Gary Keller
Episode Transcript
CLICK HERE TO OPEN THE FULL TRANSCRIPT
Lisa Larter (00:01):
Welcome to, She Talks Business. If you’re an entrepreneur, business owner or aspiring mogul, chances are you want to learn more about marketing and mastering and monetizing your business. She Talks Business is where you’ll learn all of that and more. My name is Lisa Larter and I’m an entrepreneur, high school dropout, wiener dog enthusiast and your host. Let’s get started.
Lisa Larter (00:24):
This is a near and dear to my heart episode because I am having a conversation with a woman by the name of Jackie who has been one of the most influential leaders in my professional career. I was privileged enough to work with Jackie Foo at Clearnet and Telus when I was working in the corporate world. And to say that she influenced my leadership and my understanding of big business would be an understatement.
Lisa Larter (01:03):
I wanted to have a conversation with Jackie because for many small business owners, at least my experience has been over the last decade and a bit working with small business owners, leadership seems to be an afterthought. Leadership seems to be that thing that people ask about after they’ve checked all the other boxes. They’ve got top line revenue, they’ve got profitability, they’ve got a team, they’ve got their marketing jam going on. And now all of a sudden they’re questioning what type of leader they should be. And leadership really is the driving force behind your strategy.
Lisa Larter (01:43):
And so this conversation is really a conversation with an executive who understands leadership from a large organizational perspective, and yet can have a conversation with me about the role of leadership for small business. You’re going to get some really great takeaways from this episode, and you’re probably going to think a little bit differently about how you lead not only yourself, but your team, and your customers. So grab a notebook. You’re probably going to want to take notes on this one.
Lisa Larter (02:21):
And if it sounds a little bit different, it’s because I recorded this with a video too, so my mic wasn’t as close to me as normal. And we will be sharing this video on LinkedIn. So if you’re not connected to me on LinkedIn, Lisa Larter… I’m sorry, it’s not Lisa Larter. It’s LinkedIn.com/in/lisalarter. You can watch the video there too if you would like to.
Lisa Larter (02:46):
Now, on another note, if you are one of those people who’s been listening to this podcast and you’ve been texting me or you’ve been messaging me and you’ve been telling me how great it is, and how much you love it, and how much you learn from every episode, I have two asks for you. One, please share an episode with your community. And two, if you haven’t already written a review, I would really appreciate if you would write a review. My fragile little ego is jazzed every single time I read one of those reviews. So if you would write a review for me, you will make my day. All right, let’s gets started on this episode. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed conversing with one of my dearest friends, oldest colleagues, and most influential leader in my career.
Lisa Larter (03:37):
Hello everyone, and welcome to a super, super special edition of She Talks Business. Now, normally when I record She Talks Business I don’t use the video. I just use the audio. But today is a very, very special episode. And therefore, I am sharing the video ahead of the podcast release. And for those of you who are watching this video on LinkedIn, you’re going to recognize a familiar face if you know me from my previous life.
Lisa Larter (04:12):
So the first series on She Talks Business is all about strategy. And I thought there was no better person for me to have a conversation with about strategy and leadership than my old boss and my favorite mentor, now colleague, girlfriend, dearest friend, Jackie Foo. So Jackie, thank you for saying yes to doing this. I’m so glad you’re here.
Jackie Foo (04:42):
My pleasure, Lisa. I couldn’t think of a better way to spend my Sunday afternoon.
Lisa Larter (04:48):
It’s going to be fun. It’s funny, I have a memory of you that changed my life. And I don’t know if you even know how impactful this moment was for me. But there was a time when we were both working at Clearnet before it was acquired by Telus. And I had to give somebody a, I think it was a final written warning. And you were my new boss and you were like, “I’m going to come and sit with you while you do this.” And you’re sitting beside me and you’ve got this piece of paper, and you’ve got a red pen. And I’m going through this final written warning with this manager on my team, and I’m feeling a little bit of pressure because my new boss is sitting right beside me. And out of the corner of my eye all I can see is red, red, red. You’re writing all over this piece of paper. And in my head all I can think of is, “I am so done. I am doing such a bad job. This is going just sideways.”
Lisa Larter (05:51):
Finish the session. The individual left, and you said, “Okay, I’ve got some feedback for you.” And you proceeded to go through that document, this was probably almost 20 years ago Jackie, and you proceeded to go through that document and give me positive feedback on every single thing that I did right in that session. And I think there was one suggestion you had for how I could improve. That was life changing for me. And that is the best example of your leadership on a really micro level that I can think of, because it was completely unexpected. Where did you learn to do that?
Jackie Foo (06:36):
Well first of all let me start off by saying I don’t remember that at all. And 20 years later I don’t think I’ve used a red pen and a Post-it note. First of all I really just think that we as leaders have responsibility to build self-esteem and to build relationships. And if I’m going to enter into a relationship with you, and I need you to become a better coach, a better leader, then I need to tell you as much about what you’re doing well as what you need to change, improve, refine.
Jackie Foo (07:08):
So I have these really simple models that I use. And I sort of do this thing in my head. It’s called the 1 to 10 rule. And I say to myself, on a scale of 1 to 10, how good was that presentation? How good was that coaching session? And if I believe, and I probably did if I only gave you one piece of feedback that was actually constructive, I probably thought you did a 9 out of 10 job on that interaction. And so I’m going to work really hard to find nine good things to repeat the next time you go in. And maybe I would raise the bar on future conversations, but for this first conversation it sounds like we were just getting to know each other at that time.
Jackie Foo (07:51):
I’m looking at the bigger picture objective, which is I need to build a strong relationship of trust, a strong relationship of partnership. And there’s probably some legitimately good things that you did, don’t forget I don’t remember this, that I would want you to repeat. But don’t we just want that in business in general? Don’t we want our people to repeat the things that help them to be successful? And not always about the things that don’t work. Because if we spend all our time there, then how are we building confidence and self-esteem in your team member?
Lisa Larter (08:22):
Yeah, absolutely. I remember it because you were my new boss. And any time you have a new boss, there is a certain level of apprehension because you don’t know what to expect. And in that moment, I didn’t know what to expect. And what I got was completely different than what I expected. And that has always stuck in my mind as an example of how you lead. Now I know that’s a very, very small low level example.
Jackie Foo (08:55):
Right, right.
Lisa Larter (08:56):
But it is an indicator of your style of bringing out the best in people. And so, I want to talk to you today about leadership. And I want to go back to a book that we read together probably two decades ago, The Path of Least Resistance for leaders by Robert Fritz. And one of the things that he talks about in that book is structural tension and how organizations have to set goals and look at where they’re at and then either lower their standards or rise up.
Lisa Larter (09:23):
And I want to talk to you about leadership from a larger organizational perspective, because I believe from my own experience working with you and working inside of corporations, that leaders inside of big organizations think about leadership differently than small business owners. And the work that I do today is very much around helping small business owners, but few of those small business owners are thinking about leadership as a lever for driving results. So I really want to speak to the highest level, and I want to speak to that highest level because I want to inspire business owners to really think about how they can move up in terms of their own leadership skills to get better results out of their business.
Lisa Larter (10:09):
So, I want you to talk to me a little bit about strategy and shared vision, and the role of a leader. Because I think that sometimes for small business owners, they don’t really have clarity. They’re not able to crystallize exactly where it is that they want to go. So talk to me about why that’s important and how it relates to leadership.
Jackie Foo (10:33):
Right. Well I think so many times leaders have their strategy in their head. And I don’t think that you can really bring strategy to life unless it is shared. So that would be language that I’d use, and clearly we are cut from the same cloth. And in order for there to be shared vision, and not it being sort of cliché. Shared vision to me is having a very crystal clear picture about what success looks like. And when I think about success, I don’t think necessarily about a list of motherhood statements about, we want to be the best customer service organization that sells the most product. That’s not to me what shared vision is, because you could find that sort of platitude in any organization. They’re all going to say the same thing.
Jackie Foo (11:25):
But to me, shared vision is about really seeing, what does success look like when you arrive? So I go back to when you were running your store. How do you know that your store is successful? So when I’m crystallizing a vision with a director or a team member working on a project, I want them to see, and that means all of your senses, how does it visually look? What does it sound like? How do you feel?
Jackie Foo (11:53):
So if we were talking about success, if we go back to when you used to run a wireless business, how do you know that that is a success? What’s the picture of success? And so you might say to me, “Well, Jackie, success looks like I have lots of traffic going into my store.” And I’d say, “Okay, and what do you see the customers doing?” “I see the customers interacting with my staff. I see my staff asking questions. I see them filling up their baskets and then adding on more product. I see customers that are smiling. I see them going to that register. I see them coming back in my next vision.”
Jackie Foo (12:31):
But when I talk about shared vision, it really is bringing your picture to life. Now that’s going to translate into a bunch of statements, but as you’re bringing your organization along, I think strategy is iterative. It just keeps getting crystallized, and crystallized, and crystallized. And that’s how you stretch your business to become better, because the picture becomes more refined every time you go back and talk about that shared vision with your team.
Jackie Foo (12:59):
I don’t know if that answers your question, but I think everyone needs to know what does good look like? What does good feel like? What do the metrics of good, how are they articulated? And if you want your organization… Of course I say organization because I’m used to [crosstalk 00:13:18]-
Lisa Larter (13:17):
Yeah, for sure. It’s the same. Well, this is an organization.
Jackie Foo (13:21):
Agreed, but I need every team member to come along. And so the only thing that’s going to propel them forward to come with you is if they know exactly where they’re going.
Lisa Larter (13:32):
Mm-hmm (affirmative), right. And so, how do you as a small business owner, how do you determine what the right vision is? So let’s talk a little bit about metrics and models, because one of the things that I always say to people is, “What’s your business model?” And a lot of times they don’t know what their business model is. And then when I ask people what are the metrics that matter the most to you, or what are your key performance indicators, a lot of times people are focused on the wrong things. They’re focused on dumb stuff, vanity likes. How many people liked my Instagram post? You can’t pay your freaking mortgage, you can’t hire an employee with Instagram.
Lisa Larter (14:09):
So can you talk to me about metrics and how to figure out what business model you’re in. In a big organization where you are selling lots of different products and services, there’s several models inside of the organization. So how do you get clear on what model to focus on, and what do you think are some of the most important metrics that people look at?
Jackie Foo (14:36):
Yeah. I think business, whether it’s in a big corporation or a small business, if I really wanted to dumb it down and make it simple, it’s all about revenue and growing your revenue, and then managing your expenses and making sure that when those things add up that you have more revenue than expenses. Again, the very most simplistic terms.
Lisa Larter (14:57):
Right.
Jackie Foo (14:58):
However, there are certain things that are what I call levers. And those levers drive bigger revenue. And so all of those levers are about acute focus on making sure you know what the levers of your business are. Are there five key things that drive the biggest profitability, that drive the biggest sales, that drive the biggest engagement, because engagement of your team members drives… So, you kind of need to know your levers of success.
Jackie Foo (15:33):
And if you don’t spend all your time ruthlessly prioritizing working on those levers, you’re going to be working on things that are not going to drive… They might be work, busy things, it could be important things, but they’re not the things that are going to drive the success of your organization, or the success of your department, or the success of your small business. And I think it is a lot about the discipline of staying on those levers and not trying to do everything, especially in a big organization. We have a million projects that we want to get done, a million initiatives, and it is truly about what are the priorities that drive my vision, what are the levers that drive those revenue top line growth, and what are the things that I have to watch out for that are not causing my expense line to really, really grow?
Lisa Larter (16:26):
Yeah, that was a really important thing that I think I learned from George Cope, when he was still at Clearnet and he used to host those all employee meetings and he would talk about these are the three things that are the absolute most important things that we have to do as an organization. And I think in a small business, sometimes what happens is you do have a busy list instead of a priority list. And when you look at your priorities, your priorities are usually the hardest things to do. They’re not the easiest things to do. And so you want to feel like you’re accomplishing stuff so you start to cross off all the easy stuff, but then you’re never really focusing on your priorities. So it’s totally… It’s really, really important as a leader inside of your organization that you know what those priorities are and that you can convey them to the people that are working with you.
Jackie Foo (17:21):
Agreed.
Lisa Larter (17:22):
Absolutely.
Jackie Foo (17:22):
I think you just sort of for me separated the difference between strategy and tactic. And I think that what happens is we often like the tactics because it makes us feel like we’re getting stuff done. And there may be some quick wins, really. There’s nothing wrong with working out a tactic, but the tactics have to roll up to the big picture strategy, always going back to the priorities, always going back to, am I working at the right level?
Jackie Foo (17:52):
You and I used to talk about high payoff activities and just for your group. The definition of a high payoff activity is something that’s worth your rate of pay. And what I mean by that is if you are the business owner, or the head of a department, or a president, not all things are worth your rate of pay. It doesn’t mean that you can’t do the work of the person in your team, but it’s not a good investment of your time and resources. So you always have to know your own value.
Lisa Larter (18:24):
Right.
Jackie Foo (18:24):
And I think that’s really important.
Lisa Larter (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely. You’ve worked for a lot of organizations in a lot of different roles. Can you, successfully I might add, can you give me an example of a lever that you chose intentionally to get a result and how it worked for you? Can you think of a lever that you intentionally kind of used in order to really reach a big picture initiative?
Jackie Foo (18:59):
That’s a good one. I’m going to so many different places in my mind.
Lisa Larter (19:06):
Maybe go back to when we first started working together. Because I remember, Jackie Foo, “you work for the best vision… Corporate stores has the best vision in the whole company.” And you were like a broken record, but guess what? We became the best performing, best place to work inside of the organization. So for me, one of the levers that you were pressing on at that very beginning was the culture formation and belief to really rally people. That’s an example that I can think of. I’m not sure if you can think of another one that you intentionally used back then. Because we did some pretty amazing stuff.
Jackie Foo (19:45):
Yeah, we really did. I think first of all when you’re building an organization, trying to go back to that time and actually contextualize for your audience. I know you told me not to do that, but I’m trying. When I think about the experience that we wanted in our stores, a lever for me, a natural place that I go, would be learning.
Lisa Larter (20:11):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (20:12):
And the reason that was a really important lever for our organization that we worked at, or the organization sense is that, it’s not about the lesson itself. So you’re going to send people to sales training, and then you’re going to send people to leadership training perhaps. I don’t know, in small businesses you might. But what happens is, you have to sort of decide what is the journey that you want your customer to go through? Most businesses I’m assuming have customers. And it is about a deliberate customer experience from the time that your customer enters your digital space, or your retail store, or your social media journey.
Jackie Foo (21:03):
And the lever for me would be getting everyone to take the training to drive that journey over, and over, and over again. And so the lever for me was creating a set of skills that allowed this journey to occur, but not in a programmed robotic kind of way. It is in fact giving people boundaries to say, “This is what we do. This is how we create an experience within our store.” So as an example, in my current world I have this vision right now which is about creating customers for life.
Lisa Larter (21:48):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (21:50):
And so then that is my shared vision. How do we create customers for life? Not a transaction, but an ongoing relationship where a customer comes back over, and over, and over again. And one of my levers is to train everybody on the things that drive customers for life, and then to add on the metrics that show that this is a customer for life, whether it’s the size of their basket, how often they come back, how do we talk to them across that journey? And so in wireless is an example, the area that you shared, it’s not just about the event of that sale, that phone. It’s about how do we follow up with that individual to ensure that they’re using all of the self-serve tools to manage their bills? How do we make sure that they know if they break their phone that they should be coming back to us and not going to some third-party organization? How do we make sure over that journey that we’re touching that customer not just because they need a new phone, but because all the way along that two year relationship, that we’ve checked in with that customer.
Lisa Larter (22:58):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (22:59):
So back to, I’m trying to go to this was my vision, but the lever that I used to drive that vision is a set of training, metrics, score cards, and sort of events that managed that customer journey.
Lisa Larter (23:14):
Right, your team has to have the right skills and competencies to positively affect the journey, which ultimately impact the results.
Jackie Foo (23:21):
Right.
Lisa Larter (23:21):
But if you as a leader are not clear on the journey, then you cannot match the skills to the experience to affect the outcome.
Jackie Foo (23:30):
Correct.
Lisa Larter (23:31):
And so that to me-
Jackie Foo (23:31):
That is correct.
Lisa Larter (23:32):
…is the biggest part of the lever, is you can’t actually pick a lever if you don’t know what you’re trying to do. It’s like you get in a car. If you don’t know what pedal is to step on the gas and which is the brake, well you’re going to have a hard time driving if nobody’s ever explained to you what you should push to get what outcome you want.
Jackie Foo (23:52):
Right.
Lisa Larter (23:52):
And it’s the same thing in business. And I think that a lot of small business owners, if they’re like me they reach a certain level of management inside of an organization but they were never, say, the president of that big organization. And so there is a skill that is required to develop the big picture strategy.
Lisa Larter (24:17):
One of the things that I talk to Cassy on my team about all the time is having to teach our team to think big picture and tactically. Because I feel like sometimes people get stuck in the tactics without understanding the correlation to the big picture. It’s like they can’t think spatially, they can’t think about all of it as one. And perhaps that is something that I haven’t articulated well as a leader to help them connect the dots. I’m not sure.
Jackie Foo (24:48):
Right. I think that’s a very good point, and I do think that’s the job of the leader, because everybody has different roles in that shared vision. And one of the things I like to do on a monthly basis is I do this thing called the All Hands Meeting. And I bring together all of my team members, and they’re all doing very, very, very different work. Some people could be working on systems and process, some people could be working on incentives, some people could be working on training. They’re all different. But one of the reasons why I have this all hands meeting monthly is because the job of the leader is to communicate how each of those folks contribute to the vision.
Jackie Foo (25:31):
And so, I know for my team they’re probably just thinking I’m giving them an update because that’s sort of how it’s positioned. But what I’m actually doing is to talk about the contributions of those folks that are driving this shared vision. And it’s this constant communication of celebrating contributions and highlighting strengths, and ultimately giving them hope that what they do actually matters.
Lisa Larter (26:00):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (26:02):
In this all hands meeting every month, I’m also calling out the stars of the contribution. And they could be people that were never on the radar, because in my organization it’s very large. I’m sure that’s not the same as a small business, but how you manifest that self in a small business is catch the little things and celebrate them. And so that people feel like, whoa, it wasn’t this little tactical thing that I did. This is a brick in the wall for the entire building of the vision that I’m trying to accomplish.
Lisa Larter (26:35):
Right. So Jackie, you have profoundly influenced my leadership style. However, your natural tendency, your natural given talent as a leader is to find the good and inspire. I’m like a mechanic; I go in and I see everything that’s broken, everything that’s wrong. And so, if you’re the type of person as a leader who always sees what’s wrong, how do you train yourself to see what’s right? How do you get better at inspiring through looking for the success versus… It’s like you can get stuck in this never ending cycle of, I’ve got to fix this, and this is wrong, and this is wrong, and this is wrong, and this is wrong. And because you’re so focused on trying to fix what’s broken, it’s like you have tunnel vision. You can’t see all the stuff going on around you that’s good. How do you change that as a leader?
Jackie Foo (27:35):
Right. So first of all your strengths can also be your weaknesses. So let me start there. And so that’s why you and I work well together, because I inherently see the world half glass full, and I inherently want to see the best in people. That’s just who I am. And so I hire people around me because that’s my gap, because I know we have to see the stuff that’s broken too. So that’s not a criticism, it’s just a different set of skills. And together, those make a perfect symphony.
Jackie Foo (28:11):
So how do I then become an authentic leader, because I don’t walk in and I don’t see all these things that are broken? I ask the people to see… And naively, my leadership style today is very different than even the time that we worked together. I see many more things wrong today, but how it manifests itself is I believe in public praise and private change. So I’ll call out those critical things that are broken, but I certainly won’t do it in a forum. I will pull that person to the side and I’ll try to do it in a way that protects the self-esteem, and make it about the thing that could be improved, not the person that can be improved. And I think that’s really important. People will always be okay acknowledging that things could be done differently, or these are alternative ways of looking at the business problem. But I think you have to do both. I don’t think you can only see the world through half glass full.
Lisa Larter (29:07):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (29:07):
So to your point about, how do we help all of your clients not to go to the path of what’s broken all the time, they could use my 1 to 10 rule, because how broken is it really?
Lisa Larter (29:20):
Right.
Jackie Foo (29:20):
If I step back and say, “On a scale of 1 to 10, how was that executed?” They’re going to have to work really hard. If they’re tendency is to see the stuff that’s broken, their area of opportunity is to see the stuff that’s right, positive. And in the same way that I hire people around me that see the stuff that’s broken, they can bring in other people to say, “This is not my natural tendency. You help me see the good things.” So part of it is maybe they could get someone to share in perfecting and balancing their natural tendencies.
Jackie Foo (29:55):
And the other thing is to go back to the metrics, because really, do the things that are wrong contribute to the success or failure of the business? Who cares? If it’s something that’s not exactly the way that you would do it, but it’s not going to impact your bottom line, then don’t sweat the small stuff.
Lisa Larter (30:16):
Right.
Jackie Foo (30:16):
And I always say to my team, and anyone who reports to me understands. So I always say, when people bring me issues I go, “Okay. Is it a 10 or is it a 2.” They go, “It’s a 2.” I go, “Okay, then don’t worry about it.”
Lisa Larter (30:27):
Right.
Jackie Foo (30:28):
Only focus on the 10s. Don’t worry about it. And if you keep praising the 10s, people repeat the things that you want. You shouldn’t spend any time on the things that you don’t want unless the thing that is critically broken is a 10. Then you have to have that conversation.
Lisa Larter (30:44):
Right. I always say, I have a client of mine who’s ridiculously smart, and I always say to her, “Don’t kill a mosquito with a sledgehammer.”
Jackie Foo (30:51):
Right, exactly.
Lisa Larter (30:52):
So it’s the same kind of idea. If it’s a 1 or a 2 out of 10 you don’t have to reprioritize your whole day over it. But again, you cannot do that if you don’t have clarity on the metrics, and if you don’t have clarity on the experience that you want your customer to have.
Jackie Foo (31:10):
That’s right.
Lisa Larter (31:10):
Because what is a 2 in your business might be a 10 in another business depending on the experience that they want someone to have. So I’m going to… This is an example, but to illustrate, if I go into a retail store and the bathroom isn’t pristine, I am not as bothered by it as if I go into a restaurant and the bathroom isn’t pristine. Because in a restaurant, the food… I am looking at the restroom as an extension of the kitchen. And so, as a customer on that journey it feels like if that’s dirty the kitchen’s dirty. Whereas in a retail store, I think I probably would cut them a little bit of slack. At least I know I have in the past. I might not like it, but I don’t stop shopping there. But in a restaurant I might stop eating there. So it’s important that you don’t prescribe the same rating to every business, because it could be different to your customer.
Jackie Foo (32:10):
But I think that that is key. And even in big business this is some of our areas of opportunity too. We have to see things through the eyes of the customer so often, we believe our own stories. And we write our own journey, and we write our own vision, and we don’t test. And I think about the title of your book, Pilot to Profit. That word pilot is so critically important, because even when we think we get it right, we don’t have it 100% right until you test it with your real customer.
Lisa Larter (32:42):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (32:43):
So even when we launch things, whether we launch a training, whether we launch a journey in the store, whether we launch a transaction that’s going to change in our retail stores, really the last mile of perfection is before you harden that and plug it in to your day-to-day business, I always test amongst our region, amongst a set of stores. It depends on what the initiative, but testing with your customers is really, really, really important. And that could be testing if your customer is your employee or testing with the actual customer who’s buying your product.
Lisa Larter (33:16):
Yeah.
Jackie Foo (33:17):
Because your example of the bathroom, that’s through your lens.
Lisa Larter (33:21):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (33:21):
But maybe if you happened to be retailing, I don’t know, something where hygiene is really important. Like if it’s a retail store and it’s a spa.
Lisa Larter (33:32):
Right.
Jackie Foo (33:34):
So the context changes.
Lisa Larter (33:36):
Right.
Jackie Foo (33:36):
It’s always not about your example, but every business that you support is completely different. What do your customers think?
Lisa Larter (33:42):
Absolutely, absolutely. And in terms of launching things, at least in my world, I have coined a term that I call invitation marketing. And invitation marketing is where you… It’s like proof of concept marketing actually. You go out and you test the concept, you invite people and see what their response is before you make a decision to go all in on it. And what I’m getting from the conversation that we’re having right now is you could really use that same approach to what resonates and what offends your buyer in their journey as well.
Jackie Foo (34:19):
Sure.
Lisa Larter (34:19):
So the bathroom is a perfect example. You could ask your customer, “If you came into our business and the restrooms were not 100% clean. They weren’t filthy, but they weren’t 100% clean, on a scale of 1 to 10, how important is that to you?” And really get a sense of what your buyer thinks.
Jackie Foo (34:38):
Agreed.
Lisa Larter (34:39):
In my world, the thing that we treat like a 10, which is probably a 10 for some of our customers and it’s probably a 2 for other customers, is typos. So because we are posting content for other people, there are some people that really take offense to a typo. But the truth is, we all make typos. When you are posting a high volume of information, typos are going to happen.
Jackie Foo (35:06):
Sure.
Lisa Larter (35:07):
And so it’s about really understanding, I think that’s really important to our customers, and I think it’s part of our retention strategy, but I’ve never actually asked my customers that. So it’s a really good point that we should inspect what we expect.
Jackie Foo (35:21):
Absolutely.
Lisa Larter (35:23):
So talk to me a little bit about team. Because I have this… I look at team from two sides. I remember working in the corporate world, and I had a budget, and I had an FTE account, and I could move things around as along as I worked within that budget. And I was responsible for results, but I wasn’t spending money out of my own bank account.
Jackie Foo (35:47):
Sure.
Lisa Larter (35:47):
So in a small business, you’re managing your own business and you… Typically, small business owners always feel like they have a resource issue. Sometimes I think we have a resource fullness issue. But can you talk to me about the role of team as a leader? And who to hire, who to fire, how to think through how to build a team that really helps you to deliver on your strategy?
Jackie Foo (36:20):
Right. Interestingly enough, you might think that a small business is the only group that has constraints, that I only have so much money and I can only hire so many team members. Well we have the same issue in a big corporation, too. We also… For those of you who, Lisa used the term, FTE, that’s full-time equivalent. That really means employee. We are given a budget of how many team members we can hire, but there are years where we’re also told that we need to cut that team. Let’s be honest, big corporations have layoffs. We’re in the middle of a pandemic. We had to make tough situations to close retail stores and impact people’s lives. So whether or not you’re a small business owner or a big business leader, we still feel the same pain that the small business has around number of people on the team and the choices that we have to make. Different scale, but similar.
Jackie Foo (37:19):
But I think your question was more around how do you build the right team? And what is the value of the team? And for me personally, I know what I’m really good at, and I am acutely aware of my areas of opportunity. And we just used some examples right here in this podcast. I hire for my gaps. I never hire for my strengths, because I feel like I’ll do my best in those areas. But I hire… I’ll give you an example. I think everything is possible in 50% of the time. I’m a big picture thinker.
Lisa Larter (37:55):
[crosstalk 00:37:55].
Jackie Foo (37:56):
If you actually look at the people who are on my direct report team, they are completely opposite to me. They are much more, I don’t know, detailed. Certainly less emotive. They look for the critical gaps, they tell me and manage my expectations, because I tell them their job is to tell me no, but why not. And so I’ll continue to jar with them, but I want their input. I do not want a yes team. I want a team that saves me from myself. So I’m the visionary in the organization. I’m going to create the art of the possible, but then we have to land the plane.
Jackie Foo (38:40):
And so when I think about building my team around me, it’s the people that are going to help me land that plane, because if you have a vision that never lands, that’s not a business either. And so then that would be the first thing, is hire for your gaps to create a complete team. And then, it’s about keeping that team.
Jackie Foo (38:58):
So I talk a lot and… You talked about George Cope. He is a great inspiration to me and he always talks about when you find your A-team, keep them, work with them, groom them. They’re going to go off. A-players go off and do other things. But your A-team is really important. And you always have to ask yourself, do I have an A-team? And if you don’t have your A-team, you have to have the courage as a leader and especially as a business owner to make the tough call. Because I used to say, “We don’t have room, or time. If you’re really worried about money, you can’t afford to have a C-player on your team.”
Jackie Foo (39:36):
So put on, as you like to say, your big girl pants or your big boy pants and make the tough call, because you’ve only so many slots, they better be you’re A-player. That is the job of leadership, make the tough calls. Do you think that I like terminating people or letting people go? But you know what, I’m a people leader. I have to make those tough calls because I am accountable for the success of my organization and the success of my team.
Jackie Foo (40:03):
And the reality is, your team members also know when the member on the team is a C-player. And maybe you can stretch your B to an A, but if you think you can make your C- or a D-player an A, that’s ego. And when I was young, I used to believe because I thought everything was possible, that I could convert that C- and D-player to an A-player. But that cost me money, and that cost me time, and it cost me results, and ultimately can’t make it happen. You’ve got to hire A-players, and you have to have A-players all around in the right areas of responsibility. Because also if you have A-players but you have a gap somewhere in a core specialty or a function that you need within your group, that’s not good either. So you need A-team players in all areas of your business.
Lisa Larter (40:56):
Yeah, absolutely. And as a leader it’s hard. It’s hard to let people go when you have relationships with them and you do believe that they are capable. But what I have learned, Jackie over the years, is if we go back and look at are you willing and are you able, A-players are willing and able. B players are able and they’re willing sometimes. C-players tend to be willing but not able.
Jackie Foo (41:31):
Right.
Lisa Larter (41:32):
And so it’s really important that you’re able to make those decisions. And you’re right, it’s painful. And I know we both believe that empathy and caring about people is an important part of being a leader too, but sometimes you’ve got to make some really tough decisions. I had to make a tough decision on my team a few weeks ago with respect to something that I considered to be a breach of trust from a very, very long term person. And it was really hard and really upsetting. But to your point, you have an entire team watching you when you don’t take action on those things.
Jackie Foo (42:08):
Correct, absolutely. And you’re accountable for the success of the whole team, not just the one individual.
Lisa Larter (42:17):
Yeah. I think the thing that’s different when you own your own business versus you work for a corporation or you’re an employee inside of that small business, is when you’re the owner of the business, you’re not accountable to anybody else. And so I often joke that the reason people hire me as a business coach or advisor is because they need somebody to be accountable to and I will hold them accountable. I will hold their feet to the fire, and therefore they will perform better because they don’t want to let me down. And so I think that regardless of whether you own your own business or you work in an organization, it’s always good to have that check and balance, that extra person that you do feel somewhat accountable to for your own performance. Because you talked about the stories we tell ourselves. Well, we can tell ourselves stories around rationalization and procrastination all day long if we want as business owners.
Lisa Larter (43:13):
So I want to talk about one more thing before we wrap up today. I want to talk about values or guiding principles in the role as leader. What are some of the attributes, or values, or beliefs, or characteristics that you think are most important? Because I know that my experience over the last 15 years working with small business owners is the topic of leadership does not come up very often. The topic of marketing does, the topic of lead generation does, the topic of how do I understand my numbers do? There’s a whole bunch of other things that come before leadership, whereas if we were really looking at the hierarchy, leadership sits at the top. Leadership is what influences all of those other things.
Lisa Larter (44:05):
But a lot of small business owners don’t really think of themselves as leaders. They think of themselves as entrepreneurs that are running a business and they’re responsible for all these other things. So if you were to guide us on why we need to think of ourselves as leaders and what those attributes, values, whatever, characteristics are that are most important, what would you say they are and why? A big question.
Jackie Foo (44:31):
Yeah, it’s a big question for sure. I think as a starting point, leaders need to give hope and a cause for their people to rally around. And so people will come to work every day if they know that they’re going somewhere, that they’re part of something great. And so I think a starting point, you kind of have to make sure that your team knows that there’s something in it for them, that their contribution matters, and that it contributes to the big game.
Jackie Foo (45:12):
Then it goes back to then, what are the attributes and values that are required for people to align their beliefs, things that are important to them with the things that are important to your business? And I think the way that you do that is, and I’m going to steal this because I love Simon Sinek. Simon Sinek always says, “Great leaders have two important ingredients or attributes. One is perspective, and the second one is empathy. And I think that’s really true that if you have perspective, you’re able to see your vision and see all the ingredients that go into that vision, but then also see the perspective of your employee, or your customer, really come down and empathize and are able to walk a mile in their shoes. Then you’re able to really connect those dots, because you’re saying, “Here’s my understanding of the situation. Here’s my understanding of where we are in the marketplace. Here’s my business perspective.” But I empathize with the employee, and the team member, and the customer in terms of what their situation is to make that perspective come to life. Does that make sense?
Lisa Larter (46:35):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (46:37):
Then I’m just going to go back to my own view. And that is, I believe that an important value is trust.
Lisa Larter (46:47):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackie Foo (46:48):
Because to me, trust is everything. If your team members trust you, trust your vision, they will follow you. They won’t question why are we doing what we’re doing? But in order for you to have trust, you have to gain trust. You can’t ask for trust. And so the way that you gain trust from your team is by ensuring that their perspectives matter, that you understand their situations, and that you are consistent, transparent, they can count on you, you say what you do, or you do what you say is what I meant to say, and that it’s not an event.
Jackie Foo (47:37):
When I think about does my organization trust me, I believe the answer is yes. When we do these employee surveys, trust in leadership is one of the most important ingredients because trust is belief, and belief drives behavior. If you don’t believe something and your boss asks you to do something, you’ll do the task, but if you really believe in the vision, you really believe in what your leader is telling you, you’ll take on your own set of tactics to drive that activity because the belief is stronger than the tactic itself.
Lisa Larter (48:17):
It’s really good. Jackie, we’ve known each other for a long time and I always walk away from every conversation we have together whether it’s over a nice dinner and a bottle of wine or a quick phone conversation on a ride into work. I always walk away feeling like I’ve learned something. And I think that that is also something that’s really important for business owners, is to have somebody in their court that they can learn from, that can stretch their thinking, that can inspire them to play a bigger role.
Lisa Larter (48:49):
Because as I listen to you talk about this, I think about my own business. I left the corporate world in 2006. So this November I will have been running my own business independently for 15 years. That’s a long time. And yet, I look at my vision and the impact that I want to make, and I don’t think I have been clear with my own team, because I feel like my vision is, I don’t know how to describe it, it feels, I don’t know, it feels odd to me. So I’m going to articulate it here, because I think you can help me frame it differently.
Lisa Larter (49:38):
When I was a kid growing up my mom had a job. And I was a sick kid. I had Crohn’s disease. One time I was really, really sick and I was hemorrhaging from my bowel. I spent a week at ICU. And when my mom went to her boss and said that she needed to leave work early to take me to the hospital, he wouldn’t let her leave. And he told her, “You’ve got problems, and I’ve got problems here, and you need to stay.” And that created a change in me that I would A, never have a boss that would not let me do what I needed to do in my life. And B, I wanted to really help other business owners to understand how to run a business and make enough money that they had freedom to do what they needed to do in times like that.
Lisa Larter (50:25):
And so I am so passionate about helping business owners be financially successful, because I believe the impact of that financial success for small businesses is so great. When a small business is financially successful they can hire people. When they hire people, they’re providing for those families. And the ripple effect is huge. But it just feels so, I don’t know, it feels like not a very important thing when I say I want to help businesses make money because I want them to be able to have a better life and to be able to provide a good life for other families. It feels shallow. That’s how it feels to me, because it’s related to money.
Jackie Foo (51:11):
I’m not sure that’s so shallow, because there’s just a reality around money is freedom. Let’s just really be honest with ourselves. If you have more money, you have more options. And I think that wealth creates wealth. And when you create wealth for others, you don’t know the ripple effect that it’s having. Think about every new immigrant story of success. It started off by survival.
Lisa Larter (51:44):
Right.
Jackie Foo (51:45):
How do I survive? And then, oh okay I’m now surviving. I’m going to help other people survive. And those turned into beautiful businesses. And really if you think of the foundation of our amazing country, I certainly know that I have a lot more in my life than my parents had in theirs. And I’m sure you too. I think about all of the people that have grown. You’re talking about from a small business perspective. I talk about it creating wealth within a corporation, within a company. I think about how many vice presidents, you know, that I have been lucky enough to work with that got promoted. I see them go up a level, or directors, or managers. And there’s nothing more rewarding than seeing them grow and create wealth for themselves. That’s okay. I don’t think we should be apologetic about that. I think that wealth creates wealth, wealth creates growth. And that cliché pay it forward thing is okay.
Jackie Foo (52:49):
And I think that back to my point about leadership being about perspective and empathy, one of the reasons why you are such a great champion of the small business owner is that you have both. You have perspective, you’ve walked a mile in those shoes. And so you use their speak, which is they need to be successful, they need to make their business successful. But you have empathy, because you know what it’s like. You know what it’s like to think about every dollar that I have to worry about spending, every mistake that maybe you’ve made in your past that you don’t want your client to make. So I don’t know that that’s such a… You’re almost sort of, and you shouldn’t be, self-deprecating about that vision. In its simplicity is so much beauty.
Lisa Larter (53:37):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And as you say that I’m thinking about the building of wealth inside of a business is passed through so many other ways, and it has such a big ripple effect similar to leadership.
Jackie Foo (53:54):
Right.
Lisa Larter (53:56):
When I asked you to do this, you made a comment to me about, “You have all these people. You’re a great leader, all these people follow you.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I know but your influence has influenced me, which has influenced others.” I also know that your influence came from your dad. And there are a lot of Foo-isms that came directly from him, and a lot of Sunday dinners that I benefited from his wisdom even though I wasn’t at those dinners. So I would be remiss if I didn’t honor him in this relay of leadership as well.
Jackie Foo (54:34):
Yes, thank you Lisa. For sure biggest mentor ever. And to this day most of my management, my leadership, my care and concern for people, my genuine interest in seeing people grow and flourish comes from my father. And that’s what he wanted for his family when he came to this amazing country. And because of that, I also feel the full effect of his great leadership, for sure.
Lisa Larter (55:04):
Yeah. All right, well Jackie Foo, any final thoughts before we wrap this up? It’s been so good to do this with you?
Jackie Foo (55:14):
No. Listen, Lisa. I love seeing your success. And your people’s, and your client’s success. There’s nothing that makes me happier. The greatest gift of leadership is seeing people grow and benefit. And I recently have received a ton of emails from people that I’ve helped in stores. There’s some things going on in my life that cause this sort of ripple effect of emails. Anyways, I’ll try not to go there. But what I realized is there’s no paycheck, or title, or promotion, or anything that is more valuable than knowing that you made a difference in someone’s life. And because of that difference, they are now in a better place than before that interaction.
Jackie Foo (56:08):
And isn’t that the definition of leadership: helping people to achieve what they couldn’t or wouldn’t without your contribution or presence? That to me is the greatest thing. And hopefully we, you and I, have created and helped to grow this leadership bank wherever it is.
Lisa Larter (56:29):
Absolutely. As we wrap up I am reminded of something that I read yesterday. I am rereading the book called The ONE Thing. And he talks about the one thing in the book and how it is in everything. And he talks about there is one person in your life that means the most to you. There is one person who has had the biggest impact on your growth and career. And if I were to say the one person who’s impacted my leadership, it would be you. So thank you for that, Jackie.
Jackie Foo (57:03):
Thank you, wow. What an honor that is. And it really… It almost makes me emotional, but thank you Lisa. That’s a great gift for sure.
Lisa Larter (57:14):
You’re welcome. Thank you for sharing everything you did with us today.
Jackie Foo (57:18):
It is absolutely my pleasure. I hope you have me back sometime. This was so fun.
Lisa Larter (57:22):
Yes. We will do it again for sure. Thanks, everybody. Hey, if you’ve worked with Jackie or I at Telus and you got all the way to the end, I want to see your comments. Make sure you leave a comment.
Jackie Foo (57:32):
Bye, thanks everyone.
Lisa Larter (57:34):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of She Talks Business. If you enjoyed the show, you know the drill, leave us a review, tell someone about it and join the conversation on social media. Thanks for listening and until next time remember, done is always better than perfect.
If It Matters, You Will Do It
His handle is @FailedProtostar. But one look at the photos on his Instagram feed and you’ll immediately see that he is far from failing.
Betting It All on Instagram with Sue B. Zimmerman – EP. 11
Build Your Business with Influence
You probably know her as the go-to expert for all things Instagram, but did you know Sue B. Zimmerman is a serial entrepreneur whose first business hit 7 figures at the age of 22? In fact, she was busy running a retail store in Cape Cod when she was struck with the idea to become the Instagram expert and has since built a 7-figure business around the platform.
In this episode, learn the 3 reasons why Sue B. fell in love with Instagram and how she manifested being the world’s leading expert. You’ll also hear about the secret tool Sue B. relies on to build and manage her dream team, which includes her very own daughter, Morgan. Think you could work side by side with your son or daughter? Sue lets us in on how they do it.
Is generosity a business strategy? It is. Hear how generosity and bringing people joy, without expectation, can be an effective strategy, not to mention a great way to show up and be yourself inside your own business.
Is generosity a #BusinessStrategy? Hear how generosity and bringing people joy, without expectation, can be an effective strategy in episode 11! Click To TweetListen in as Sue B. shares how she learned the difference between ‘the hobbyist’ and her ideal client the hard way. Sue tells us what she had to change in her business to attract the right people and move away from hobbyists sucking her time and energy. You’ll also hear the crazy story of SBZ Enterprise’s Facebook ad account being shut down and how her team had to pivot to keep revenue from drying up.
What’s in This Episode
- How to build a 7-figure business around a social media platform
- Tips on how to shake off “hobbyists” and attract your ideal client instead
- How to identify the red flags that a team member is not the right fit for your business
- Generosity as a business strategy
- What tool Sue B. relies on to help her manage her team
- What to do when Facebook shuts down your ad account
- Advice on letting a team member go
What To Do Next
- Sign up to be notified when I run the next Roadmap Workshop.
- Subscribe to receive this podcast and regular weekly strategies to grow and shape your business. You’ll also be the first to know about upcoming courses, programs and exclusive LIVE training.
- Connect on Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn and share your insights from the show.
- Join Thought Readers and connect with other like-minded entrepreneurs in this popular book club for business owners.
Up Next
In episode 12, The Role of Leadership in Your Business Strategy, Jackie Foo and I get real about what it takes to lead, really lead, in your business and how the simple act of learning to bring out the best in people can grow your profit and change the lives of your team members, your clients and impact the legacy you leave.
Books Mentioned in This Episode
- Rocket Fuel by Gino Wickman and Mark C. Winters
Where to Find Sue B. Zimmerman
- You can connect with Sue on Instagram (of course!), Facebook or her website. And, don’t forget to check out her Youtube channel!
- The Sue B. manifesting video that started it all.
Episode Transcript
CLICK HERE TO OPEN THE FULL TRANSCRIPT
Lisa Larter (00:01):
Welcome to, She Talks Business. If you’re an entrepreneur, business owner or aspiring mogul, chances are you want to learn more about marketing and mastering and monetizing your business. She Talks Business is where you’ll learn all of that and more. My name is Lisa Larter and I’m an entrepreneur, high school dropout, wiener dog enthusiast and your host. Let’s get started.
Lisa Larter (00:25):
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of She Talks Business. Today, you are going to listen in on a conversation with a former client, dear colleague, and trusted friend of mine. Sue B. Zimmerman, also known as The Instagram Expert, joins me for a conversation about strategy and business.
Lisa Larter (00:55):
And if you think this conversation is going to be all about Instagram, you are wrong. We are going to talk about what it took to build this business of hers. We are going to talk about the challenges along the way to getting to a profitable seven-figure business. We’re going to talk about how do you rebound when Facebook shuts your ad account down that you rely on for a steady influx of leads? And we’re going to talk a little bit about some predictions for the future, the value of relationship marketing and being really generous in how you give to others.
Lisa Larter (01:40):
Sue has been an influencer on Instagram for the last eight years. She really bet the farm on Instagram; she went all in on that channel when she still owned her retail store. So we’re going to talk about why she chose to do that. So many nuggets in here. And I got to tell you, she only used the F-word twice, which is amazing. But you might get a chuckle out of that Sue, if you’re listening. Sue has helped so many people, thousands and thousands, and thousands of people with their marketing strategies on Instagram. And recently, she has pivoted to helping people on Clubhouse. And in a two-month period has attracted over 20,000 followers there.
Lisa Larter (02:30):
This is not what you would expect as a typical interview with Sue Zimmerman, this is all about the business of building a business. And if you aspire to be an influencer or to have influence and to build a company that generates seven figures and a great big profit, then this show is for you. All right. So I’m here with Sue B. Zimmerman, one of my favorite, most enthusiastic colleagues and friends. And we’re both making out with our mics because Steve Dotto says that’s what we have to do to sound good. So Sue, so good to have you here.
Sue Zimmerman (03:14):
How do I sound? Do I sound all juicy and up close and personal?
Lisa Larter (03:17):
Oh, you sound great. You look great too.
Sue Zimmerman (03:20):
It’s great to be here again with you.
Lisa Larter (03:22):
Yeah, it’s great to be with you. My God, we have so much fun when we connect. It’s like we should do it on the daily, but we are both so busy.
Sue Zimmerman (03:30):
We’re both so productive. The word is productive, Lisa.
Lisa Larter (03:33):
Oh yes, the word is productive. I aspire to be productive and not crazy busy. Future goals. All right. So you are known by the world as The Instagram Expert. And I really don’t want to talk to you about Instagram today, I want to talk to you about other stuff. I want to talk to you about strategy, and I want to talk to you about money, and I want to talk to you about all the fun things that you have done over the last, what is it? It’s got to be-
Sue Zimmerman (04:04):
Over eight years.
Lisa Larter (04:05):
Yeah, eight years of building this business of yours. So my first question for you, because I love strategy. And strategy, it’s like the red thread that is woven throughout every single show that I do. Doesn’t matter what the topic is, it’s always about strategy. And strategy is just a fancy word for, really a plan, making a bet on something and believing you can do it. So eight years ago, you decided to bet on Instagram. Why was that your strategy, because everybody else was on Facebook? Talk to me about why you chose that channel as a place to dominate, influence, and build a business?
Sue Zimmerman (04:51):
Well, there’s three reasons. One, my teenagers, my twins were on it. And I know that teenagers, well, they set mobile trends, it’s just the truth. And at the time I was teaching social media, I was teaching two moms off season, and I had my store on the Cape. But we were on vacation in Belize. And I looked at Lila and Kara and they were not talking or tapping, they were scrolling. And I had no idea what that motion was. And when I looked at them and they weren’t talking back to me, I’m like, “Guys, what are you doing?” They’re like, “We’re on Instagram, don’t get on it because then you’re going to start teaching it,” because they knew I was teaching social media.
Sue Zimmerman (05:28):
So I of course downloaded the app, I read every blog. And at the time, it wasn’t widely used for business, it was just a photo app. But I had a store on Cape Cod in Massachusetts, and I was doing everything to drive traffic and increase sales. And I started using Instagram. And because of my strategies around what I was posting, the geo location, and hashtags, people started driving to my store because you can open up maps when you geo-tag and coming into the door and buying the product that I was sharing on Instagram. And all these light bulb moments went off where I went all in. But the second reason is because my brain thinks and processes the world visually, so this app was made for my brain. And then thirdly, no one was teaching it at the time. So when I went off to a conference all about online marketing and selling and I had no idea what that was, I decided I was going to teach Instagram to a global audience.
Sue Zimmerman (06:36):
And I did what I think you would do, Lisa, is I got back from that conference, and I manifested what I wanted, but I didn’t just manifest it. But I did the act of manifestation by putting my cell phone in the woods on a branch. And I recorded a video that lives on YouTube that we can share in the show notes where I declared I was going to be the Instagram expert. I was going to teach a global audience how to use Instagram to grow a business. Fast forward eight years, here I am.
Lisa Larter (07:07):
I remember that, I remember the conviction that you had. And I remember when we first met face-to-face, we had been connected online for years. But it was back in 2014 that we met at a social media camp in Victoria. And I remember how ridiculously committed you were to owning that space. I remember thinking you were a little bit crazy, this new social media channel and you were so convinced. And maybe crazy is the wrong word, but you were a little bit obsessed.
Sue Zimmerman (07:51):
I think it was obsessed, enthusiastic, and passionate, all of that. Because I think what you’re referring to were my hashtag signs that I carried with me everywhere. I wanted to make my mark, I wanted to stand out. I wanted to be memorable, and I wanted people to feel connected. And for me, as you probably recall, that connection is always and has always been with a photo because that’s a timestamp of a memory, and it’s a story. And it can be a blog post, and it can be a reference. And it can be that was then, this is now. And you and I have those photos, Lisa.
Lisa Larter (08:28):
I have my hashtag sign for my event hanging here in my office.
Sue Zimmerman (08:33):
Yeah. So there’s all of that. I know how to make an imprint and leave a memory, and that’s what a photo does.
Lisa Larter (08:42):
Yeah, it does. And I would also say that it’s more than just a photo with you. I would say that that passion really makes a difference. I’m writing a book right now, my first commercially published book, and I’m writing it with Alan Weiss. And the working title is called Masterful Marketing. And one of the things that we’re writing about is value. When you give value, there is a reciprocity factor that takes place. And when I think about you and the work that you do, you have this hugely generous spirit. And you are generous in terms of being a gift giver, you are generous in terms of giving your time, and you are generous in terms of giving your expertise. You put it all out there, you are a model example of I’m just going to give it all away. Whereas a lot of other people are like, “Oh, don’t give it all away,” then you won’t have anything to sell. So can you talk to me a little bit about where that spirit of generosity comes from, and is that part of your strategy or is that just nature? Is that just who Sue is?
Sue Zimmerman (10:04):
That’s a great question. I think it’s in my DNA, I have always been a gift giver, always thinking of the perfect gift for the person. And I get so much pleasure out of that. And I know from past experiences, not just teaching Instagram, but from all of my businesses that the more I gave, the more I always got back. And getting back was not always money, it was not always the direct correlation to money in my bank account. It was just the connection of meeting someone awesome, the connection of growing a community. Taking it back to my story at Cape Cod, I had these high school girls that worked for me, and all their friends came. And not only did I sell clothing, jewelry, and accessories, but I did chalk in people’s hairs, I put feathers in their hair, I did face painting.
Sue Zimmerman (11:00):
I created a memory, and it was always happy. And I think at the end of the day, everyone wants to experience more joy. It’s who I am. And when you say strategy, I love that we’re going back to that word because in essence obviously the law of reciprocity happens. And people either keep you top of mind, appreciate you, but most importantly, talk about you. And there’s this whole ripple effect. Even if you’re not talking to someone who can afford your coaching or your product or your service, if you left good imprints and made them feel good, they’re going to talk about you on Facebook, they’re going to talk about you in Clubhouse. They’re going to talk about you and tag you on a post or remember you. You and I both get so much business from others who have talked about us, right?
Lisa Larter (11:57):
Absolutely. And I think there’s a fine line between generosity and manipulation. I think there are some people, they have too well crafted a strategy around giving with an expectation attached to it. I’ve known you in real life, like met you face-to-face for seven years now. And I can see that there is a pureness of generosity in you because it just shows up over and over and over again. So let’s talk a little bit about the grind because you and I did a little bit of work together years ago when you were building at the beginning. And so I know that it wasn’t an overnight success. And a lot of people would look at you and because your personality was so big and positive and outgoing, it’s easy to interpret the personality as the success of the business. So talk to me about some of the challenges you-
Sue Zimmerman (13:08):
Yeah, that’s a great question. When we were working with you, we were struggling with, I will never forget, the pebble and rocks exercise that you had us do. And the customer journey that we could take our community through that was in alignment with what they needed and would serve and help them in the long-term. And it took a long time to go from the free offer to the paid offer, to the bigger offer, and then the bigger offer. And to do it in a way that, again, was what they needed. Not what we wanted to make the money, but what they needed to have the success in their business. And I know that you and I always lead with this kind of integrity, but it is challenging, especially when you are new in this online space. And at the time that we worked with you, I was newer, again, coming off of years and years, and years of product-based businesses and knowing nothing about online marketing and selling. And to your point, some of the manipulative things that happen which are not in alignment with the way that we work.
Sue Zimmerman (14:22):
I wanted the psychology behind the serving and selling to match up to the experience that we wanted to give. And we did such great work with you that really helped catapult us into a more successful business and scale. I mean, we’re all about scaling. And since day one, year one, our business has grown every year, but we wanted to hit the seven-figure business mark.
Lisa Larter (14:51):
I remember Morgan, “I just want to build a seven-figure business.”
Sue Zimmerman (14:53):
We wanted to hit it. It’s not just the money part of it obviously. I always throw in the word profitable whenever I say I have a seven-figure profitable business because anyone can have a seven-figure business by throwing seven figures of ads at a business. And so with you, you took us, you really held our hands at the beginning. And we saw what was possible when we work with someone that had more experience than us and had more success than us and understood us. Working with you was fun, and it was like being with my friend who was cheering me on every step of the way. And we mentioned Morgan, Morgan is my CEO. Morgan honestly makes most of the decisions in my business because she is the one analyzing the data consistently. That is her brain much more so than mine, and we are in alignment with how we grow this business steadily every year.
Sue Zimmerman (16:00):
We never were racing to have seven figures. We wanted to have seven figures, but we didn’t want to do it at the expense of our work-life balance, which I know you and I totally love the ocean and just having our time with the ones that we love and the things that we love.
Lisa Larter (16:18):
Can you talk to me a little bit about the lessons you learned about attracting the wrong audience? I remember us talking about all these people who loved you that really didn’t have any money to invest. And I think that sometimes people, they get focused on what I call vanity metrics. They’re focused on their followers, they’re focused on their list, and they’re not as focused on the actual growth of their business. Can you talk to me about that?
Sue Zimmerman (16:53):
So I need, the word that we use, Lisa, is more the hobbyist. The hobbyist is the one that is so passionate about what they create, but they don’t have a strategy. They just don’t even put time into learning, understanding. And they just want to create, they have no idea what the value of the time or how much time it took to knit the sweater or paint the piece of art, any of it. And so it’s frustrating to attract that audience that isn’t willing to invest money in growing, learning, collapsing time, and most importantly, making an impact in the world. And so a lot of the shift for us came with our messaging around who we wanted to attract. And so that comes with having and investing in really good copy, understanding who is it that we love working with so much that it doesn’t even feel like ‘a client’, but a girlfriend that I would sit and have coffee with.
Sue Zimmerman (18:00):
And I know that your clients are those same individuals, Lisa. And this is why we love what we do so much because we work with people that make our lives feel more fulfilled by doing what we do best. And it doesn’t feel like a J-O-B, it’s like our life purpose. And when you attract those who appreciate the value of your money, and all money is an exchange of energy and value. But when they appreciate the value, the alignment is there instead of like, “Why am I even marketing to this person? It’s not who I want to work with.”
Lisa Larter (18:38):
Right. So talk to me a little bit about the step-up journey and what you have learned about hiring and building a team and hiring the right people, knowing when to maybe off-board the wrong people. That’s a huge part of the journey too, right? It’s great to create this culture around generosity and creativity with your clients, but it’s almost like a completely separate animal, another business that you’re running on the backend when you start hiring a team. And before we started, you and I were chatting, and you said you’re hiring 2 new people, up to 16 people now. I’m in the similar situation, we’ve got between 20 and 30 people working with us at any given time. And there’s a lot of personalities and a lot of dynamics that go into making a team work. What have some of your biggest lessons been on that?
Sue Zimmerman (19:42):
Yeah. It’s such a great question. And I feel so, I want to say, I don’t know if the word is privileged, grateful. To me, this is the success. This is the “did all fucking the work”, and this is the success, to have a team that has your back every day, all day. What we did is we took the StrengthFinders test. And that was so important because-
Lisa Larter (20:09):
I think I told you to do that.
Sue Zimmerman (20:10):
What?
Lisa Larter (20:11):
I think I told you to do that?
Sue Zimmerman (20:12):
I think you did, I think you did.
Lisa Larter (20:13):
Yeah, I love that test.
Sue Zimmerman (20:15):
And that was such a pivotal part in my relationship with Morgan mostly because you can get frustrated with what people aren’t doing. But when you know what their strengths are, then you can lean into those strengths and not look down upon their weaknesses, but literally celebrate the strengths and what their gifts are. And so I say that because so much more respect for each other and our unique brains. She’s all system, processes, automation, backend. And I’m all educating, inspiring, motivating, mindset, entrepreneurship. The respect was just elevated for each other. And with that, today the bigger we get and the more we hire talent to do the things that we don’t love grinding in. I don’t like managing my calendar, I don’t like looking at emails, I don’t want to book any of my travel. I don’t write my copy, we have a graphic designer, we have a videographer.
Sue Zimmerman (21:25):
We are able to hire the talent for the specific contribution to this business. And when you do that, you offload all the things that you do as an entrepreneur. And believe me, Lisa and I have done all of it personally because at the beginning you have to grind and wear all of the hats all of the time. And so we’ve been able to afford, to hire the talent that serves this business to keep scaling and keep growing. And it’s amazing what happens when you put all the cogs to the machine together and everyone has the same vision and the same values and the culture behind the team and the business that you’re growing, it’s magical. And I never imagined to have the life that I have today with the team that we have working with us.
Sue Zimmerman (22:19):
And we are very close, and we love working together. Lisa, I think this probably is true for you, but I always say to my husband, “Everyone that works for us treats this business and makes decisions as if it’s their own business. They have so much enthusiasm and commitment to the greater success of our mission.”
Lisa Larter (22:43):
Why do you think they’re like that?
Sue Zimmerman (22:46):
Because of the way that we treat them, the way we pay them, we’re very generous. And the way we include them in the decision-making processes and the way that we’ve outlined what their role is, the job description that Morgan literally documents and what they’re responsible for and why. So everyone knows what their wheelhouse is, it’s clearly defined. And we all know who to go to for what and why. And so when we’re communicating in our Slack channel, it’s just so easy to have projects flow seamlessly and be ahead of projects, never scrambling to get the copy with the graphics for the blog or the YouTube video. Everyone’s contributing in a timely manner. And we’ve got the systems and processes in place to bring that enjoyment around each person’s position.
Lisa Larter (23:50):
And so do you get people to go through the StrengthFinder before you hire them or after?
Sue Zimmerman (23:57):
We haven’t done it with every employee, and that’s an interesting question. When we interview now, it’s quite a process to bring someone onto the team. Always with the video, we always have a video part to the component just to check the energy level and just hear the enthusiasm. But that’s not a part of the hiring process today.
Lisa Larter (24:26):
Okay. One of the things that I do, and I’m not consistent with it, but I would like to be is I basically have a strength, StrengthFinders grid. And I have all of my team members written down one side, and I have all of the different strengths. And I have them categorized into the four different areas. And then I mark off what the strengths are. And the reason that I do that is so that I can identify gaps in our strengths. Because as an organization, you need to be whole, you need strengths in all areas of the business not just the areas that are like you. And I have found that mapping that out on a one-page document and being able to look at it really helps me to see where we are missing strengths in the business.
Sue Zimmerman (25:14):
That’s so smart. Yeah, I like that idea a lot.
Lisa Larter (25:21):
What have you learned about hiring people that are not the right fit? I know I’ve done that. And one of my favorite questions is a question that Tim Ferris asked in a, I don’t know if it was a blog or a podcast of his, years ago. It might’ve been a podcast, but it’s written in a blog, which is what are 20% of the people and/or things that create 80% of your stress? And I remember when I asked myself that question the very first time, it was like ding, ding, ding and a person’s name on my team came up, and I was, “Ugh.”
Lisa Larter (25:58):
I just had that ugh feeling in my gut because this person was a great person, but they were no longer the right person on the team. They were no longer the right person on the bus. Has that happened to you? And what has your learning been around that? And what advice would you give to people who are listening right now about how to make smart decisions when that happens? Because Sue, you are such a positive, loving, fun person, it’s hard to imagine you getting really down to brass tacks and being like, “Look, this isn’t working.”
Sue Zimmerman (26:38):
It’s happened twice. And it happened with someone who was with us for five years as the OG. So it was a really hard to deal with that. And I think I even reached out to you a little bit and got advice from other people, even my husband. It was hard, it was so hard because this person was a part of the very, very beginning and committed for five years. When we brought on new people, it was really stressful. And this particular person just felt like her job was taken away or that she wasn’t the big cheese anymore, and she wasn’t able to make decisions. And the energy was so hard and so frustrating. We were talking about her too much behind her back. To your point, it was occupying my brain too much. It was like-
Lisa Larter (27:35):
I love what you just said, we were talking about this member of the team too much behind their back. When that starts to happen, when you start to have conversations internally that do take up too much time that way, it’s such a big red flag.
Sue Zimmerman (27:49):
It’s such a red flag. And it was over and over again, it was so much mind share and so much energy. And it was just like, I just said one day enough. And I texted Morgan, she’s like, “Wait, are you serious? Because I thought it was going to be me telling her.” I’m like, “I’m done, I’m done. We’re doing this, I’m done, I’m done, I’m done.” But it was hard. So that was the first time. The second time we made the mistake of hiring a student who we thought had all kinds of skillsets that she claimed she had and may have had but were outdated to today’s … You know how quickly online marketing moves and software moves and all that.
Sue Zimmerman (28:30):
And so we did not do our background check, Morgan just did an audio interview. And if we had done a little bit more digging, I think we would have discovered that she wasn’t capable. And there were a lot of insecurities with her decisions. She was reaching out to other team members before doing anything because she was afraid of failing and disappointing myself and Morgan. It just happened too much. And that ended well and very professionally, the first one did not end well at all, and it was a shit show.
Lisa Larter (29:12):
Yeah. I think it happens, it happens. The one thing that I will say that someone said to me at one point about someone on my team was, “When you first started this business, did you use Infusionsoft?” And I said, “No.” And they said, “What did you use?” And I said, “Oh, I think I used Constant Contact.” And they said, “Okay. And did Constant Contact work well for you at that stage of your business?” And I said, “Yeah, it did.” “And so what made you move to Infusionsoft?” “Well, my needs changed. I need something that did A, B, C, D, E.” And the person literally turned the performance issue that I was having into a metaphor that sometimes people are the right fit for certain phases of your business.
Lisa Larter (29:58):
But then as your business does step up, some people will step up their skills in conjunction with the business step up, and some people will want to hang on to that early stage of where you were before. I think it’s important to recognize that the people that contribute at different stages, it’s that whole thing. What is the expression? Some people are here for a season or a reason. I think it’s about being able to identify when someone is not the right fit for the next stage of your business.
Sue Zimmerman (30:37):
Yeah. The next phase or the stage. That’s a great teachable lesson for everybody listening, for sure.
Lisa Larter (30:43):
Yeah. Okay. So I want to talk a little bit about risks associated with business because you dropped a little bomb on me before we started, and you said you lost your ad account. We are also dependent on social media in so many ways for lead generation. And there’s a few things that I’ve heard lately that have happened to people that I know. You’re not the first person that I’ve heard all of a sudden their ad account is gone or all of a sudden their profile or their page is gone, and they don’t even know what they did. And I also had a client reach out to me just recently because PayPal froze her PayPal account because she made too much money in one month. And they deemed that because she has a coaching business that she was high risk and they’re holding her money I think for six months, and she’s got to find a new merchant provider. But they’re literally holding her money for six months.
Lisa Larter (31:50):
Some of these tech companies have the ability to really influence the results in your business when you are too embedded in them. So tell me a little bit about what happened and then tell me what you did and how your ability to pivot and your strength in building relationships has helped you overcome this challenge?
Sue Zimmerman (32:13):
Yeah. So two months ago we, in preparation for the iOS privacy updates, went in and changed all of our ads in one day just in preparation for that. My team was in there doing that. And we do work with an ads consultant team, we have a team that was overseeing this. And our ad account got shut down, it was probably like a red flag. Some changes were just going on too quickly. And we appealed it and appealed it and appealed it. And weeks later appealing, appealing in conversation with Facebook, finally got on with Facebook, but we just couldn’t get it back. We were relentlessly, I mean, I reached out to some of the gurus in the industry that spend millions of dollars and knew people at Facebook, and we just couldn’t get it back. So we were like, “We need to take control of what we can do.”
Sue Zimmerman (33:07):
And at the time, fortunately Clubhouse came out, and Clubhouse came out. And I got on the app at the end of December. And I’ll talk about Clubhouse in a minute, but I’ll talk about … Let me just tell you what we did with Facebook. So we tried everything we could. And when we knew that there was just no way that we could get our account back, we had to start building nine months’ worth of work, nine months’ worth of creating ads and visuals and graphics, and all the funnels, all the things. And so we had to open up a new credit card, so a new card was associated with that account. We had to use my address here on the Cape instead of in Boston. We had to open up a new Facebook page, get a new email URL, redirect everything, lots of steps.
Sue Zimmerman (33:58):
We’re still doing what we need to do to build the ad account up. And you can only spend a certain amount of money as you start an ads account. And we were spending close to $2,000 a day, and it was generating all the leads all day long with our evergreen sales funnel to Ready Set Gram. It was a beautiful thing. We finally figured out the code of making money in our sleep, it was beautiful. And that was really a blow that happened. Fortunately, we hit all of our numbers from last year. But we had to figure out, as entrepreneurs do, what can you do to help generate leads organically? And Clubhouse came along, and you know me being an early adopter on every and all social platforms like Sue B. over here just wants to try everything because you never know.
Sue Zimmerman (34:52):
And clubhouse has turned out to be a place where I am daily. I have my own room five days a week, I have my own club called The Real Deal. I have over 1,000 people in my club, and I’ve built almost a 20,000 following in a little over two months. And with that has come organic leads close to 100 to 200 leads daily from Clubhouse. So now we’re not spending any money, and we’re having great results with-
Lisa Larter (35:23):
Oh my God, you’re going to have so much profit this year.
Sue Zimmerman (35:25):
But the really cool thing, Lisa, you heard me speaking at the beginning about all of our offerings and working in our high end coaching. The conversion from people listening and hearing what I teach, what I do, how we do it in these rooms to people wanting to apply to our coaching has increased. And our last sales in Ready Set Gram Pro all came from Clubhouse. And the closing on those, zero friction.
Lisa Larter (35:57):
That’s amazing. Why do you think people are so responsive and enamored and engaged with Clubhouse?
Sue Zimmerman (36:07):
Several reasons. You can really hear that enthusiasm, that integrity, that honesty. You have to think quick on your feet if you’re going to contribute to a conversation. And it has to come from experience, from wisdom, from knowledge. It can’t be something that you just heard in another room or you read on Google. And so because my knowledge on Instagram marketing is deep and goes back eight years, they know that I’m the real deal, hence the name of my club. And because of it, I have quite a reputation in and around the hallway and in the clubs because I’m pulled up on stages and given the moderating badge, which just is a green beam for those of you that need to know any of the nuances. But it really just is whose ever room it is, they typically moderate those who can contribute to the conversation at hand and support the audience as well. It doesn’t mean that you’re better or greater or anything like that. In my opinion, it’s a stamp of this person knows what they’re going to talk about and can contribute. And so with that … Yeah.
Lisa Larter (37:24):
But I also think it’s a relationship thing. I think there’s a level of relationship and trust that allows people to bring you up in a room. Most of the time if I go into a room on Clubhouse and somebody is leading the room that I know sees me, they bring me up right away. And it’s again, it’s because of the relationship. They know you’re not going to go all Grant Cardone on them and that you’re going to be respectful to the audience. You’re not going to be pitching the audience, you’re going to add value.
Sue Zimmerman (38:01):
Yeah. Speaking of that, what annoys me is when someone like him comes in a room and you’re in the middle of a conversation, they stop the conversation just to give him attention that he’s looking for. And the whole energy in the room shifts. That’s when I say, “Peace out, I’m out of here.”
Lisa Larter (38:19):
So what are some of the … Well, I guess we don’t really need to talk about some of the downsides of Clubhouse right now. I think there’s a lot of masculine energy that is really pushy, pushy, pushy. And I think that that’s a good thing because I think it creates an opportunity for women to go in and lead their way and to connect and communicate their way and really stand out.
Sue Zimmerman (38:46):
I am learning and have learned that obviously you choose where you hang out and where you want to broadcast what you know. And for me, it’s always the smaller, more intimate, mostly women led clubs and rooms where I feel most alive and purposeful with just the conversation and the comradery and the sisterhood and the love. And that’s where I like hanging out the most even though I do enter into some of those masculine rooms. I do want women to know that they can stand firmly in those rooms if they want to, and contribute. I have a little edge about that as well.
Lisa Larter (39:30):
Yeah. I’m the same. I don’t like that ego push, push, push mentality. I see it on LinkedIn now too, everybody and their dog wants to connect with you on LinkedIn. And then the second you accept a connection request, they want to sell you something. And it’s just such a turnoff. Social media for me has always been about relationship building and adding value. And when you build relationships and you add value over a continuous period of time, it becomes a no-brainer for people to want to do business with you because they know you, they like you, they trust you. I don’t believe that telling is selling.
Sue Zimmerman (40:15):
The manipulative energy, I have such a problem with it, I really do.
Lisa Larter (40:21):
So let’s talk predictions. What’s next? What do you anticipate is going to happen in the social media landscape? Without going political because that’s not-
Sue Zimmerman (40:36):
Yeah, that’s not my thing anyway.
Lisa Larter (40:41):
We’ve seen a lot of tech companies exert control and control the narrative to a certain degree. And there was an article in the New York Times about social media and tech companies basically acting like the Supreme Court over what they considered to be fact. I’m just curious, I know that some of the people that I’ve had conversations with, they’re starting to feel a little bit jaded around social media. And you’re starting to see some divisiveness on social media too. And so I’m just curious what you think the future impact is, especially given the experience you just had with your own ads account?
Sue Zimmerman (41:34):
The first thoughts that are going through my mind are, I’ve observed because I observe so closely trends and just movements, and I think there’s a big movement with the whole authenticity of the person behind the brand. And I think Sara Blakely and her husband Jesse do this brilliantly in exposing all of it, the good, the bad, the ugly. The perfection as you and I know don’t exist. When people can feel more intimately connected to you, whether it’s your lifestyle or the fact that you have dogs or whatever, the way you dress or any aspects of that lifestyle is shown in a way that’s not braggy or look at me, I have this convertible or I bought my second home or I’m wearing this Cartier bracelet. Any of those kind of pretentious ways of showing off success or fame or money, which is so not in alignment with me. But you do see the backdrop of my lifestyle and so much of my stories and my photos. I think there’s a movement for, are you that person that is all over the internet in person? You and I both are that person.
Lisa Larter (43:01):
Is it the same person? Is the person I meet in-person the person that I see online?
Sue Zimmerman (43:06):
Exactly. And if there is a disconnect, that trust is broken the second you see someone. It’s like, “Whoa, you’re 20 years older than that profile photo, what happened?” I think that there’s that movement, it’s been evolving even before the pandemic. I really have sensed that. And my team and I are trying to put less perfectly curated photos from my photo shoots, which are fabulous and more iPhone photos here in my feed as well. So that’s number one. Number two, in terms of … Did you want to add anything to that?
Lisa Larter (43:47):
No. I agree with you. I remember meeting somebody who had this really big, bold personality online. And I met her at an event, and I shook her hand, and she had the dead fish handshake. And I was like, “Oh, you are not who you pretend to be online.” It was really fascinating. And I think that that changes things for people when they have those experiences.
Sue Zimmerman (44:13):
Definitely. Definitely. And I really think in terms of business, you and I both have been in the online education space selling online and in person. You do amazing in-person events. And we tried one, and we will do another one someday. But I think that there’s a way to connect your audience more intimately within your community. And so what I’m learning is it’s so much easier to retain a customer than acquire, I hate the word, acquire a new one or get a new one. And so we’re doing everything to bring our community together in more intimate ways, whether it’s in our pro coaching and we do workshops quarterly or in my Ready Set Gram Facebook group where I do a live broadcast, but we’re talking about doing challenges and educating.
Sue Zimmerman (45:12):
When people feel connected to like-minded business owners, magic happens within your community. And if you were to ask me what I’m most proud of, yes, we hit seven figures, yes, we have a team of 16. But I am most proud of the thousands and thousands, and thousands of people in our community because that means that our marketing, our messaging, our work is working.
Lisa Larter (45:39):
And I think right now with COVID, people are craving community more than ever before. And they’re craving like-minded community, they’re craving generous communities. I used to always joke that people would join my programs because of me, but they would stay because of the community.
Sue Zimmerman (45:57):
True, true. I’m seeing that trend as well because we have a subscription, after our initial 90 days of our pro coaching, we have subscription opportunity for people to stay. And the most of them are for another year.
Lisa Larter (46:13):
Yeah, that’s great. So I have one last question for you before we wrap up, because you have built a business around your personality and the brand of Sue. Yes, you are the Instagram expert, yes, you have a team and all that. But really at the core of the business, it is Sue B. Zimmerman, is the influencer that is the one bringing the leads into the business for the most part. Morgan has influence too, I see Morgan’s influence. I adore Morgan, I think she is just a super, super, super smart young woman. And I can’t wait to see where she is in 10 years from now, I’m just so impressed with her growth. But I’m curious as to what advice you would have for somebody listening right now who thinks, “I want to build a brand like Sue, I want to use my personality, my creativity, my relationship gifts,” et cetera, et cetera, “to build something.”
Lisa Larter (47:16):
What advice would you give someone who aspires to be … And I hate saying be an influencer because I think you got to have fricking influence before you can be an influencer. But reality is people do aspire to have influence, to make a difference in other people’s lives today. And at the same time, we have this cancel culture out there where you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t in some situations. You and I have seen some pretty big online influencers take it on the chin this year for saying the wrong thing or not saying anything. There’s that other side that can be a little bit scary in terms of putting yourself out there. So what advice do you have for somebody who’s just starting out, they’re listening and they’re thinking, “How do I do what you did”?
Sue Zimmerman (48:09):
Yeah. This year, the whole team read Russell Brunson’s book Expert Secrets, phenomenal book.
Lisa Larter (48:17):
It’s a great book.
Sue Zimmerman (48:18):
What really resonated for me is building a movement. And yes, I’m the face of the brand. We are actually strategically evolving into more than just Instagram because once you’ve had success building a seven-figure business, you can take all of those lessons and teach business owners what you did to do that, and it’s not just Instagram. Instagram is the marketing tool, Instagram is the machine that brings in the leads. But so much to your point of my growth and success has to do with Morgan’s contributions, her brain, and the way that she runs this business. And with this comes bigger and greater opportunities to scale outside of Instagram. So my advice is when you lean into the thing that brings you the most joy and you can build a business around that, and you learn all these lessons along the way and you document them, and you then have the opportunity to teach in a bigger way. And that’s the crossroad where we’re at right now as we continue to scale.
Lisa Larter (49:24):
So talk to me about documenting the lessons. Do you do that? What is your process around that?
Sue Zimmerman (49:30):
We do. We reflect on every launch, what worked, what didn’t. We talk about things that we stopped doing. We actually have a lot of posts and IGTV videos. The things that we’ve shut down, we shut down a Facebook group with 10,000 followers. The lesson is the more hyper-focused you get to your offer and take away all the other things that are distracting you, things being time to keep up with and create, the more success that you can have. And so eliminating for us and honing in and simplifying. I like to say simplifuckingflying. It’s definitely-
Lisa Larter (50:19):
We’ll use a little E next to this podcast.
Sue Zimmerman (50:21):
Yeah. I have a graphic on my Instagram account, it’s so good that says that. But the more you can simplify and go deep in your craft, the more impact you can make, which leads to that income. And that’s what we did to scale seven figures this year. Morgan led the charge with our campaigns and the ad spent to the budget and the hires and just constantly tweaking the copy and the messaging and the webinar, all of it. It requires looking at what worked and looking at what didn’t work after you do every launch, every project, every campaign, and documenting it so that you learn and grow from it. And with it came, “Sue, I think it’s time to shut down your personal account Sue B. Zimmerman? “Really?” “Oh, I like that account.” “Yeah, shut down that Instagram account, it’s inactive. Shut down a Facebook group, 10,000 people, just shut down a lot of things.”
Sue Zimmerman (51:28):
And also even, Lisa, to the point of what stages am I speaking on and what I’m saying yes and no to. We now have people that I get sponsorships, and you want me to talk about something. The influence is going to cost you money.
Lisa Larter (51:47):
I want to wrap up because I want to be respectful of your time and the time on the show, I feel like I could talk to you for probably like three hours here. I have a business idea for you. Have you read the book Rocket Fuel Yet?
Sue Zimmerman (52:03):
Yes.
Lisa Larter (52:04):
So I think that you and Morgan should do like a sparkle fuel. And I think that you guys should talk about the left and right brains of two women who have come together to build a business this way. Because there’s so much learning in terms of both of your approaches. I know both of you, and I know your personalities are very different. And it takes a lot of trust in each other to do what you guys have done. And I think there’s a whole world of learning-
Sue Zimmerman (52:41):
We’ve been talking about it. And so it’s kind of like you’re not too young, you’re not too old, there’s 30 years between us, and it’s not too late. And so we have something brewing with a TED Talk, with a book, which I am not writing. But I hear you, friend, I hear you.
Lisa Larter (53:01):
Yeah. I just think that you and Morgan deserve to be acknowledged because a lot of women struggle to work well together, especially in a business partnership. And I think that the two of you with your super creative brain and her super logical process-oriented brain, I think you guys have just done a beautiful job of building this business while still loving each other. Do you know what I mean?
Sue Zimmerman (53:32):
So much love and so much respect. And we’ve worked a lot at respecting each other’s roles and contributions. I trust her so much to make the big decisions. And she hires the next team member and tells me why and what she thinks they deserve to get paid, and we get on a call. I trust her because it’s always in the spirit of growth. And like I said earlier, slowly building so that we have the lifestyle that we want.
Lisa Larter (54:07):
Yeah. So if I could wrap the show up with one last thing that I want you, the listener to take away, that is every woman in business needs a younger person to give them insights. So Morgan is 30 years younger than Sue, and it’s super, super valuable to be able to tap into that young way of looking at things. And the same is true for a young woman. A young woman who’s in her 20s who’s starting her business really does need the guidance and mentorship of someone who is older than they are, 20, 30 years older that can help them. I really believe that yin yang mix in terms of age and experience is a beautiful thing and that not enough people are looking for how younger people can help them and vice versa.
Lisa Larter (55:07):
So if you don’t have that person in your business or in your life, you need to find them because there’s a lot of magic that happens. I mentor a lot of young women, and I love it. And sometimes I go to them and I ask them questions about things they think I should be doing in my business, and I love the advice they give me. It’s just a really beautiful thing.
Sue Zimmerman (55:27):
It is. And it’s been a beautiful journey, and it’s been my favorite business to date. It’s been wonderful. I don’t see changing anything other than growing and making a bigger impact.
Lisa Larter (55:40):
Awesome. All right. Sue, thank you so much for your time. I am going to put all of your links and all of the fun stuff about where people can find you into the show notes. And it’ll be super, super easy to find you-
Sue Zimmerman (55:57):
Lisa, I would love everyone listening, I love to just say, I’d love for you to come over to Instagram, The Instagram Expert. And just on any of my posts, just tag me, leave a comment and tag Lisa and let us know what really resonated for you today because I love hearing from you. And the best way to do that is to pop on one of my comment threads or just in the DM and tell me. Yeah, we want you to take action.
Lisa Larter (56:25):
Awesome. Thank you, Sue.
Sue Zimmerman (56:27):
Yeah, so fun.
Lisa Larter (56:28):
Great to spend time with you, we’ll have to do this again.
Sue Zimmerman (56:31):
For sure.
Lisa Larter (56:32):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of She Talks Business. If you enjoyed the show, you know the drill, leave us a review, tell someone about it and join the conversation on social media. Thanks for listening and until next time remember, done is always better than perfect.
When Automation Fails…
My recent experience with two well-known companies and their customer service paints a very telling and familiar picture about the role of automation. One was much more personal in its approach, while the other relied too much on AI. The former nailed responsiveness and got the sale, while the latter has left me feeling drained.
The truth is, the more personal company, the one that makes its buyers feel heard and valued, will win every time. This is a story, that in so many words, every buyer has told at one point or another.
The Second Sale Strategy – EP. 10
Tune in to Your Customer Journey
Does the subject of sales make you sweat? You’re not alone! Many of us have tunnel vision when it comes to our sales process. We’re so busy giving ourselves a high five after the first sale or get so caught up in doing the work for our client that we completely miss the opportunity of the second sale strategy.
What is the second sale strategy, anyway? I’m so glad you asked because this week’s episode dives deep into the customer journey and how the 3 tenets of the second sale strategy will completely change the way you look at marketing and selling in your business.
Did you know that 79.4% of customers* (in retail) never make a second purchase from the same company? Why is this? What does it take to bring a customer back for a second purchase? Learn why only 21.6% of customers* buy again and how studying the lifecycle of your customer can help you build a sales process that dramatically increases how many first-time clients buy from you again. Heck, maybe they work with you for years!
79.4% of customers (in retail) never make a second purchase from the same company. Learn why only 21.6% buy again and how studying their customer journey can help you build a sales process that increases how many first-time clients buy… Click To TweetLearn how selling is like an avocado, how to use a loss leader and how to craft the perfect second sale. You’ll also hear why one of my clients says he’ll never stop working with me.
After hearing this episode, you may decide you want to drill down and figure out your business’s customer journey and how to put the second sale strategy to work for you. The good news is that sales is stop number four on the Strategy Roadmap. So, why not join us for my next Roadmap Strategy Workshop? Simply click here to be notified.
*based on statistics from this Bluecore article.
What’s in This Episode
- Why the Customer’s Journey is critical to your business
- The secret to bringing in long-term clients
- How selling is like an avocado
- The most powerful question you can ask yourself about your business
- How to tell if you’re followers or subscribers are cheerleaders OR potential clients
- Learn what a loss leader is and how it can bring you repeat business
What To Do Next
- Sign up to be notified when I run the next Roadmap Workshop.
- Subscribe to receive this podcast and regular weekly strategies to grow and shape your business. You’ll also be the first to know about upcoming courses, programs and exclusive LIVE training.
- Connect on Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn and share your insights from the show.
- Join Thought Readers and connect with other like-minded entrepreneurs in this popular book club for business owners.
Up Next
In the next episode, Betting it all on Instagram with Sue B. Zimmerman, Sue brings us behind the scenes of SBZ Enterprise to reveal exactly what it took to build a profitable seven-figure business around Instagram (and it’s not all selfies and cute outfits!).
Blog Posts Mentioned in This Episode
- Check out the blog post that sparked the idea for this episode: The Second Sale Strategy.
Books Mentioned in This Episode
- Never Lose a Customer Again: Turn Any Sale into Lifelong Loyalty in 100 Days by Joey Coleman
- Getting Naked: A Business Fable About Shedding The Three Fears That Sabotage Client Loyalty by Patrick M. Lencioni
Episode Transcript
CLICK HERE TO OPEN THE FULL TRANSCRIPT
Lisa Larter (00:01):
Welcome to She Talks Business. If you’re an entrepreneur, business owner or aspiring mogul, chances are you want to learn more about marketing, and mastering and monetizing your business. She Talks Business is where you’ll learn all of that and more. My name is Lisa Larter and I’m an entrepreneur, high school dropout, wiener dog enthusiast and your host. Let’s get started.
Lisa Larter (00:24):
Hello, hello, hello and welcome to today’s show. We are going to talk about my favorite thing to talk about today. It is something that makes some people squirm with fear and discomfort, it creates sweaty palms and sleepless nights, and I love it. We’re going to talk about sales. Specifically, we are going to talk about the second sale strategy.
Lisa Larter (00:46):
But before we dive into that, I know I’m going to give you a minute, let your heart slow down, let you grab like a little towel to wipe your hands, so you don’t have to get all worried about things. I want to just send a shout out to Ashley for being my first hot seat podcast guest last week. She was fantastic. And if you didn’t listen to that show, I highly recommend you go back and listen to episode nine. I think that the conversation that Ashley and I had about her business was really, really powerful. So powerful it has actually prompted me to write a blog post around whether or not you want to be an influencer, or an expert with influence and how the two are not the same.
Lisa Larter (01:33):
I also want to send out a special thank you to Sabrina. She sent me a voice message on Instagram this week and told me how impactful a previous show had been for her. And one of the things that she mentioned in that voice message was hearing me talk about the work that I do with my clients felt like a non-pushy way to sell what you do. And I told her, that’s called seeding, my friend. When you seed what you do and you tell stories and you let other people see how you help people in your business, you are kind of soft selling. You are seeding. And what happens when you plant a seed in the ground, and you water it and you take care of it? Well, that seed eventually grows into something of value. So thank you, Sabrina for reaching out and specifically telling me what it was that you enjoyed about that episode.
Lisa Larter (02:36):
So today we’re going to do something new. I have invited Stephanie back. And one of the reasons that I invited Stephanie back, because you may not know this, but the last episode I recorded all by myself, God, done is better than perfect. But sometimes the perfectionist in me rears its ugly head and I recorded that show four times before I was happy with it. So this week, Stephanie is back and we’re going to try a different approach. So if you don’t know Stephanie, Stephanie Rainey has been a client of mine for, oh my gosh, it’s got to be like six, seven, eight years. I don’t even remember the year we started. When she starts to jump in, maybe she can tell us, but she’s really done the whole A to Z gamut with me and started at A again. She started working with me and I helped her build her business and exit her business by selling it, which was always the end goal.
Lisa Larter (03:36):
And the reason that I asked her to come back today is she’s more, it’s like she’s more aware of my content and my teachings than I am. And she’s got a knack for asking me really, really great questions. And I wanted to try a different approach with this episode to see if it’s easier to pull the information out of me in a verbal way, versus me looking at my show notes and trying to riff on things. So this is an experiment of sorts that we are going to have with you. She’s going to be asking me all about the second sale strategy and picking my brain on all the things that I do to help grow sales in a way that is not threatening and makes it easy for you to do as well.
Lisa Larter (04:26):
So before we get into all of that, I want to talk to you about the problem with one sale buyers, or one and done buyers; those people that buy once and then that’s it, they’re gone. Well, Stephanie found this article on Bluecore with some really, really amazing stats that we’re going to talk about. And I’m going to talk to you about that. And after we talk about those one sale buyers, we’re going to get into the whole second sale strategy concept. And there might even be a third sale in there that you want to hear about. We’re going to talk about things like the buyer’s journey and why the buyer’s journey might not be exactly what you think it is. And then we’re going to talk about three tenets of a second sale strategy, which include lead attraction, the loss leader methodology, and the second sale approach. So we’ve got some really juicy stuff here for you today so I hope you stick around and this is why you should stick around.
Lisa Larter (05:32):
So according to this Bluecore article, in retail, it has been found that 79.4% of first time buyers become one time only buyers. That means they never purchase from you again. That means that 80% of the people that you sell to like they… It’s like a first date. That’s all, they never come back. But if a person does buy a second time, there is 130% increase in the lifetime value of that client. People say this over and over and over again, stop trying to get new clients and instead focus on the clients you have. When you’re always, always, always trying to get new clients, you are working so much harder than you need to. If you can adopt the second sale strategy, the second sale mindset in terms of how you bring people into your business, if you can incorporate it into that buyer’s journey, you can make the growth in your business a lot easier to execute on.
Lisa Larter (06:49):
But most people, they don’t even think about the second sale. And the reason that they don’t think about the second sale is they’re too obsessed with acquisition. They’re constantly looking for new, new, new, new, new. So their attention is always focused on just closing the first sale and they’re not spending enough time thinking about, or anticipating what their customer might need next, and then after that, and then after that. They are short sighted in their sales approach. And today we’re going to teach you how to start to think long-term. Now, I’m going to pass things over to Stephanie. And like I said, she knows my content better than I know it myself. She probably even knows the year that she started working with me. And we’re going to talk about this whole second sale strategy thing. Stephanie, thank you for helping me make this easier to do.
Stephanie Rainey (07:49):
No problem Lisa, I’m always happy to hop on and look at all these ideas, especially all this stuff that’s in your head. It’s my favorite thing to do, is kind of pull out what you mean by all of this genius stuff. Because sometimes it gets complex or we make it complex because we don’t understand some of these principles. I think one of the coolest things about you is that you read so much that you’re always introducing these new ideas to us as business owners, that we normally would not have the time to ingest and you make it so simple to follow them. So I’m excited about diving into this one because when I read this article that was on your website, this blog article about the second sale, I thought, oh my gosh, what a great way to look at things.
Lisa Larter (08:30):
Yeah, thank you. I’m surprised you hadn’t read it before. I thought you read everything I did. Like, I thought you just like cemented it into your brain.
Stephanie Rainey (08:38):
I thought I did too, but we go back sometimes, and I totally was not in the head space to know this stuff, I think when I read this article, when it came out. So the second sale strategy really is dependent on the buyer’s journey and this was something I had never heard of or thought of. And what I love about that is it takes the big picture approach to sales and thinking about acquiring a sale, rather than that narrow microscopic look at just how do I get that first sale? So can you explain what the buyer’s journey is? Just so that I’m sure that I have that down pat.
Lisa Larter (09:12):
Yeah, for sure. So from my perspective, the buyer’s journey is really the journey that a customer is on, or a buyer is on, seeking a solution to a problem they have. And so it starts with aware … It starts with curiosity about something, and then it lends itself to awareness of who you are in your business or what your business is that solves the problem that they’re looking for help with. And it typically culminates in some type of a sale, but the problem is most people stop the journey there. And I think that you have to look at the journey beyond the first sale. You have to look at what does the buyer need next? What do they need after that? What is the lifetime value of a buyer and how do you attract people on the journey in the right stage so that they can do business with you longer and you can provide value to them longer term.
Stephanie Rainey (10:17):
Okay, awesome. I remember the Florida mastermind, I think you sent us this book and we were to study it ahead of arriving, and it dealt with the buyer’s journey. Is that right? Do you remember the title of that book?
Lisa Larter (10:29):
Yeah, it was Never Lose A Customer Again by Joey Coleman. And it’s a great book. I mean, he talks about the experience that a buyer has from the time they step into your bricks and mortar establishment, or they pick up the phone to talk to you, and how that journey can lead that buyer to eventually referring other business to you. It’s a fantastic book.
Stephanie Rainey (10:51):
Awesome. Yes, that’s right. Now I remember, it’s starting to come back. So the second sale strategy, what is the difference between an upsell and a second sale?
Lisa Larter (11:02):
That’s a great question. So if you ever worked in retail when you were a kid, you would have been taught to add on, add on, add on. That is an upsell. So if we think about a grocery store, for example, you get a flyer in the mail and when you get that flyer in the mail, there is typically some type of a promo. Let’s call it eggs. They’re on sale for 69 cents. And so off you go to the grocery store because you’re going to buy eggs because eggs are on sale. But when you walk through the grocery store, you see the chocolate and the potato chips and oh, you see milk. I need that. Oh I need yogurt. Oh, maybe I need some new hand cream. And you are literally upselling yourself because of the flyer that you received in the mail. So that would be an example of an upsell.
Lisa Larter (11:53):
When you think about a second sale, I want you to think about a bank. When you go to a bank, they are willing to bet the firm on you, they are willing to give you all of this stuff when you create a new bank account with them. Well, why do you think they want to put money in your bank account? Why do you think banks are giving you money to set up an account? It’s not because they’re generous. Like let’s be real. The reason that a bank is doing that is because they’re after the second, third, fourth, and fifth sale, because the first sale is just getting you to set up your account. The second sale is the fees that they make from your account. The third sale is the credit card that you get through the bank. The fourth one is probably the mortgage or the bank loan.
Lisa Larter (12:36):
A bank knows that the first sale, they can lose money on it. Just like the grocery store may lose money on the eggs. A bank is willing to lose money on that first interaction. The difference is the journey with the bank is typically many, many years long, and there are many different types of sales. Whereas the grocery store, you may go into a grocery store once and you may buy a whole bunch of things because that one item drew you in, but you may never go back to that same store.
Stephanie Rainey (13:07):
Wow. I had two ahas when you were talking about those two examples. Number one is the first thing about the upsell. And I’m thinking about when I head into a grocery store, for whatever I picked up, whatever I want to pick up that’s in the flyer. I bring my kids with me and then not only are they upselling to me, they are upselling to my kids because when I go through the cash, there’s all this delicious stuff that my kids want. And they’re asking me for it, especially when they were small. So that was like, wow, it’s not just one upsell, it’s several.
Stephanie Rainey (13:40):
And then the second part is the second sale. And the bank, think about this. They have not only thought about my life cycle as a client. They’ve thought about my kids, because one of the things they do in the stages is they send you out this information about this cute little account. You can start for your kids called the lion account or something. And my kids, all four of them have had lion accounts. And now they are customers of the Royal Bank simply by default. That blows my mind.
Lisa Larter (14:12):
Absolutely, absolutely. And when you do a good job on that second sale, when you do a good job about thinking about the life cycle of your buyer and you continue to nurture the relationship long-term, it makes all those second sales easy to do. It’s when you are distracted by the acquisition of the next buyer, and you start to drop balls with the initial buyer that you run the risk of not getting the second sale.
Stephanie Rainey (14:40):
Yes. That makes a lot of sense. So that kind of leads us to tenet one, which is the lead attraction process. So talking about lead generation. Can you explain that part?
Lisa Larter (14:50):
Yeah, absolutely. So lead generation is really how do you attract leads into your business and there’s different ways for you to do that. But what most marketers are telling you to do is build your list, they’re not really telling you how to attract leads. What they’re telling you to do is create some free download, put it on your website, get people to download it, add them to the list because the list is what’s going to sell and it’s not effective because it’s transactional. It’s not relational in nature. And so you’ve got to go beyond the download. You’ve got to really think about your website and what is the most wanted action when somebody goes to your website. Do you really want them to download that free thing? Or do you want them to buy something? Or do you want them to schedule a call with you? When you think about your lead attraction process, it really should be in parallel to what your buyer’s journey is going to be.
Lisa Larter (15:55):
So you can’t do a really good job at your lead generation approach if you’re not clear on what the buyer’s journey looks like. And if you are focusing on first sales only, then you’re not cultivating any type of relational journey with the buyer. And so everything you do from a marketing perspective is really to attract people to your business, but all leads are not created equal. Just because I subscribed to your mailing list, or I downloaded a thing doesn’t mean that I’m ready to buy. I’ve just introduced this new program that is starting in June called The Strategy Lab. And one of the members of the program that reached out to me or one of the new founding members reached out to me, and in her email to me, she said to me that she has been listening to my podcast and she’s been on my email list for years, but this is the first time she’s bought something.
Lisa Larter (16:59):
And so you have to recognize that list building is great, but sometimes it takes years for people to pull the trigger. And so you’ve got to be clear about what it is you want people to do and who that right person is, and is that most wanted action that you want them to take when they arrive on your website, the right thing, given the journey you want them to go on?
Lisa Larter (17:24):
The last thing that I would say is business or sales, a little bit like an avocado. An avocado, it’s either too early to eat it, it’s the perfect time or it’s too late. And when you think about selling, people are either selling too soon or they’re stuck when it’s the perfect time to ask for the sale or they lack urgency and responsiveness, and they end up being too late to close the deal. So it’s really about understanding the perfect timing and the perfect amount of responsiveness when your buyer starts on that journey so that you can make a great first impression. But if you try to sell too soon or you try to sell too much too soon, you can actually blow up the whole journey.
Stephanie Rainey (18:20):
Wow. Such a careful curation for your sales journey. It’s awesome to pay so much attention to each step along the way.
Lisa Larter (18:28):
Let me stop you for a second there. I think you need to pay attention, but I don’t think you need to obsess. I think what you need to obsess about is what is that journey for your buyer? Like in writing my book, AJ Harper said to me, “Who are you writing this for?” And I think that that question is such a powerful question, because most people think about writing a book as “I’m going to write a book about topic A” and the problem with most business owners is they do the same thing. They go “I’m going to build a business about this” and they make it topical to the business, instead of really thinking about who it is that they’re trying to serve and what that person needs along the way. It’s not that complicated if you just step back and think about who it is you want to serve.
Stephanie Rainey (19:18):
Yeah. That makes sense. That’s much, much simpler. It reminds me too when you were talking about, when you end up with a huge list and people are not necessarily buying from that list. It reminded me of quite a few entrepreneurs who over the years came into the mastermind. And one of their biggest problems was, is that they had this great concept, they had this great idea, they had a huge list, they had big communities on Facebook and nobody, when they put something forward would purchase it. So it’s kind of like the emphasis is on a completely different spot. They’re so worried about traffic, that they’re not thinking about that first and second sale.
Lisa Larter (20:03):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And because they’re putting their energy into the wrong thing, I mean, I’ve got a business that does over seven figures a year and it has for years now. And I have a small mailing list because I’m not focused on the list building transaction. Am I focused on, do I want to grow my mailing list? Absolutely. But not at any cost. It’s interesting. My next guest on my next show is Sue Zimmerman and we’re talking about betting it all on Instagram. And Sue has been very upfront about the fact that she worked with me a few years ago. And when she worked with me, one of the things that we diagnosed in her business at that particular time, and this was years ago, is that she did have a really big following, but she had the wrong following. She had a following that was cheerleaders, they weren’t buyers. And so it’s important that when you are thinking about the buyer’s journey or you’re thinking about the lead attraction process, that you’re not attracting a bunch of cheerleaders, but rather you’re attracting people who are buyers, that are serious about doing business with you.
Stephanie Rainey (21:12):
Awesome. Now we’re moving into the second tenet, number two. So the loss leader sale. So can you explain that?
Lisa Larter (21:20):
Yeah. So I talked about it a little bit earlier. Loss leader, grocery stores are notorious for loss leaders. They put something on sale at a loss, and that item leads you into the grocery store and down a path of impulsively buying other things. And so they make back the loss. I’m always asking people, do you know what the cost of acquisition is for a new client? Would you be willing to pay $5,000 for a new client? And most of the time when I ask that question, people look at me and go, no, are you kidding? I would never pay $5,000 for new client. But then I say, but what if the lifetime value of that client was $500,000? Would you pay 5,000 then? So a loss leader is really a calculated gamble. It’s knowing the lifetime value of a client and knowing how much you can afford to lose on the first sale or how much profit you’re prepared to compromise on the first sale in order to either get the upsell or the second sale.
Lisa Larter (22:30):
So in my business, for example, a strategy session with me, when I am creating a strategic roadmap for someone is what I would consider a loss leader. If somebody wants to just spend half a day with me to work on their business, we’re side by side, working together, I charge the same thing as I typically charge to do a strategic marketing roadmap for someone. But when I do a strategic marketing roadmap, it takes me significantly, it probably takes me four to five times the amount of effort and time for myself. Plus it costs me, I’m going to say 20 to 30 hours of working time with my team to put together this amazing marketing roadmap for people.
Lisa Larter (23:19):
But here’s the thing. At the end of that roadmap, when I give them priorities and I show them how our team can help them to execute on those priorities, we have a 95% conversion rate. So we can afford to take the strategy session as a loss leader because we know what the success rate is on the other end. We know what the second, third and fourth sale is with that customer. And so we’re not afraid to do that. And I think that that is an area people are too shortsighted. Again, they’re too transactional instead of relational.
Lisa Larter (23:59):
A book comes to mind that I read years ago, I think it’s called The Naked Consultant by Patrick Lencioni. And it’s all about rolling up your sleeves and acting as if, acting as if the buyer is already your buyer, even though they haven’t made a buying decision yet. Like when you get invested in the relationship and you start to talk to your buyer about things that you’re going to do down the road with them, you are really laying the groundwork or the foundation for them to work with you for a long period of time. I have clients that have worked with me for a decade, 10 years. If I had looked at the first sale as the value of that relationship, how shortsighted would that have been? It would have been ridiculous.
Stephanie Rainey (24:43):
It really takes those two key things, which is to deliver excellence in the first sale, like exactly what you were talking about on that strategy session. And the second is clearly understand what your buyer wants to do next.
Lisa Larter (24:55):
Absolutely, absolutely. When you deliver excellence right upfront. And I mean, here’s a couple of other examples. So in the Strategy Lab, for example, one of the things that I’m putting in there is what I call a make back lab. Because I want to show people how to make their money back fast. When people coach with me privately, I always want to help them get wins right away. Because when you deliver excellence in that first experience, then people are going to stick with you longer because they’ve had a great win. Think about it. If you go to a restaurant and it’s supposed to be an outstanding restaurant and you go in and you order this beautiful meal and you take your first bite and you’re like, meh tastes a little, not great. It’s okay, but it’s not great. And then you go home and suddenly realize you have food poisoning. You’re never going back to that restaurant. That first impression did not deliver excellence. Therefore you’re not going back.
Lisa Larter (25:50):
But if you go to that restaurant for dinner, once a month for five years, and one night you get sick. If that restaurant has delivered a great experience for five years, and you really feel invested in the people that work there, and you’ve had lots of great memories, you’ll look at it as a one-off. But if it happens before the good stuff, it’s a write off.
Stephanie Rainey (26:12):
That totally makes sense. So tenet three is the actual second sale. So having that second sale. Can you explain that part?
Lisa Larter (26:20):
Yeah, the second sale is when the buyer is committing to doing business with you again. And if we look at that stat, 80% of people never move forward after the first sale. So when your buyer commits to a longer lasting relationship with you, a couple of things happen. They’re investing in the long-term. And if they are investing in something that is, I don’t know, repeatable in nature, then you are building basically recurring repeatable revenue in your business, which is a beautiful thing. When your buyer starts to get really great results from the work that you’re doing, then they’re going to stick around longer. So when I look at my … I start to see the second sale with my year long coaching clients, as soon as they start, because I tell them that most of my coaching clients work with me for two to three years at minimum, it’s not just about the first year. It’s very, very, very rare for people to only work with me for a year.
Lisa Larter (27:25):
So when you know that, and you know the average length of time that a customer stays with you, you can actually predict and anticipate the revenues in your business. So let’s just pretend that currently I am charging $25,000 a year for my private coaching program. So let’s just pretend that I have 10 people that just decided to start coaching with me today. So that’s $250,000 base right there. But if I know that on average, 90% of people work with me for three years, it’s not a $250,000 opportunity. It’s a $750,000 opportunity. So this is what I’m talking about, when you think about the second sale, and you think about the continuation of doing business with people, I think the wins are way more than the 130% in that article. At least I think they are in my business.
Lisa Larter (28:24):
And then the other thing that starts to happen when people are working with you is they start to tell other people about you and the work that you do and the experience that they’re having. And that feeds tenet one, which is the lead attraction process and makes all of your marketing efforts a whole lot easier because more people are learning about you, but they’re learning about you, not because you are shoving marketing materials down their throat. They’re learning about you because other people are talking about the great stuff that you’re doing. And so to me, that’s like the beauty of the second sale thinking because the next sale, let’s call it the third sale is the referral sale, and everybody wants to attract inbound leads. But the best inbound leads are leads that come from other people who are singing your praises. Those are the easiest pieces of business to close, but you don’t get the opportunity to get those inbound leads unless you do great work with your buyers.
Stephanie Rainey (29:27):
It reminds me of that story that you tell about Nabil. Do you want to tell that story? And we worked together for seven years by the way.
Lisa Larter (29:34):
Oh yeah, seven years. There you go and you’re still hanging around.
Stephanie Rainey (29:38):
I know. And I thought I was for sure, I told you, oh, I won’t work with you any more than two years.
Lisa Larter (29:42):
Oh yeah. Yes, I remember that conversation. I just want you to know I’m going to work with you for one more year and I want to learn this and then I’m done. You were very matter of fact about it. And I’m like, okay, that’s great which kind of leads into the story with Nabil. I always tell my clients that someday we’re going to break up and it’s okay. Someday, they’re going to want to work with a different business coach or strategist and that that is okay. The relationship will always be there, they don’t need to feel awkward about coming to me to say, look, I want to take a break or look, I want to go work with somebody new. It is okay for you to outgrow a coaching relationship and want to work with someone new. And so Nabil says to me, well, I don’t agree. And I was like, why don’t you agree?
Lisa Larter (30:25):
He’s like, because you’re constantly learning. And he said, so as long as you continue to invest in your learning, I feel like I’m always trying to keep up with you. And so he said, I don’t think that I’m going away anytime soon, because every time I have a conversation with you, you are adding new value and that is why I’m sticking around. And so I think that’s a powerful thing. When you think about the longevity or the life cycle of a client. If you can continue to add new value, you can keep your clients longer. And we’ve talked about this a little bit earlier Stephanie. People are afraid to sell.
Lisa Larter (31:05):
So last week, no … A couple of weeks ago, a client of mine reached out and asked if somebody on my team could interview one of his buyers, and get a testimonial, and write a case study about the work that they have done with that particular buyer. And so we’d been coordinating the logistics around, making that happen. And then another client of mine is working on some positioning stuff. And I was like, oh, I bet you, this would be really valuable to them. So I reached out to them and I said we’re doing this work for this other person. And it made me think about what you’re trying to do in your business right now. And I wasn’t sure if this would be something that would be helpful for you or not. Within minutes, this person replied and said, yes, that’s exactly what I need to do. Let’s do it.
Lisa Larter (31:52):
Now, if I had been afraid to share, if I’d been afraid to say, hey, I have an idea that might be helpful to you. Because I didn’t want to be too pushy. I didn’t want to be too salesy then I would have missed the opportunity to help that other buyer. We’ve got to get over our fear of selling. The only time you should feel uncomfortable about selling is when you’re trying to manipulate somebody into buying something that really isn’t what they need. If you have a product or a service or a methodology that can really transform somebody’s life, business, etc., you’re doing them a disservice by not letting them know that that option is available.
Lisa Larter (32:34):
What you really need to do though, is you need to shelter your fragile ego and stop being attached to the outcome of the buying decision. And I talked earlier about the person who is joining The Strategy Lab and how they said they’d been reading my, my newsletter for years, years. Well guess what? I didn’t take it personally over the last few years when I have emailed about opportunities and they haven’t bought. I don’t take that stuff personally because I believe when the time is right, the time is right. And when you try to force the time, it’s like you’re trying to force that avocado that’s rock hard to be ready to make guacamole. It’s not ready. You can’t make that avocado mushy. It’s not time. So the timing of selling and the timing of showing up and adding value is just so incredibly important.
Stephanie Rainey (33:25):
And when you do a really good job with someone, especially over a long term, it’s funny that you kind of keep that avocado ripe. I’m so going to remember that image now, because they’re so right for these other opportunities and exactly what you were talking about with Nabil, you’re moving forward and he wants to move forward with you as you learn. And then what you did is you looked sideways to see if somebody else wanted something from you in the other direction, in that parallel to what one client is needing at one time. Maybe another client needs that as well. And that’s really why I worked with you for seven years was that you had so many silos of expertise that when I thought I was finished with one silo, you said, oh yeah, the other problem that you’re having in your business, I know a lot about that too. And then you stepped up and showed me all of these things and helped me with these huge problems that were a headache at the time. And it just kept going.
Lisa Larter (34:20):
It just kept going. That’s right. It’s a journey, it’s a journey. There’s so many different layers that go into building a business. And I think that good business owners, good entrepreneurs are lifelong learners and they’re always looking for ways to improve. And a business cannot exist without a customer. If you don’t have a customer, if you don’t have somebody who’s actually giving you money, you don’t have a real business yet. So you’ve got to get over your discomfort with selling and really look at how you can make selling a natural thing that isn’t awkward or uncomfortable for you. I mean, when you go to McDonald’s and you order a burger, and the kid behind the counter says, would you like fries with that? They don’t sweat about it. They don’t lose sleep at night because they have to ask somebody if they want fries, because they know most people want fries with their burger. So we’ve got to stop making assumptions about our buyers.
Lisa Larter (35:17):
So I’m going to wrap up with that. So first of all, Stephanie, thank you for asking me questions. I find it so much easier and this is the first time we’ve done this so it might have been a little bit bumpy for the listeners. I’m not sure, but I would love your feedback. I’m Lisa Larter at Instagram. If you enjoyed the show, tell me, tell me what you liked about it, tell me what we could do better.
Lisa Larter (35:39):
So couple things next up. Sue Zimmerman is going to be on the show. And we are going to talk about basically going all in on Instagram and how she made that decision years ago when no one was using Instagram and how betting everything on Instagram has helped her build a million dollar business. So we’re going to talk about that. We’re to talk about numbers on that show as well. It’s not just about being an influencer with a bunch of followers. It’s about building a really successful and really profitable business. So that’s something that you can look for on the next show.
Lisa Larter (36:16):
I encourage you to go away and map out your buyer’s journey. I encourage you to sit down and interview a couple of your best clients and literally map out the steps. What were they thinking of when they found you? How did they find you? What was the first thing they did? The second thing they did? And really look at that journey and see if you can figure out what that looks like.
Lisa Larter (36:39):
And then this is the final thought that I want to leave you with. There are two things that you should not put limitations on when it comes to your buyer’s journey or that your buyers experience with you. These are two things where I see people make mistakes and get tripped up all the time. One, never assume how much money someone has, or how much they’re willing to invest in their own personal or professional growth and development. I have seen those assumptions prove wrong over and over and over again with clients of mine. Not because I’ve made the assumption, but in stories that they have told me related to pricing, where they’ve been afraid to raise prices. And then all of a sudden they raise prices and people that they thought would say, no, for sure said yes. And then said yes again and again. So never assume you know what somebody is willing to spend.
Lisa Larter (37:31):
And then the last thing that I would say is never assume how long they will continue to do business with you. I said, the average person works with me for two to three years. Stephanie worked with me for seven. I have another client that’s been with me, I think I have 1 client, 10, 11 years. And when I interviewed Dan Sullivan for Thought Readers a awhile ago, I think he said something about clients that he’s had around for 30 years. It was a pretty crazy number. So never underestimate how long you can keep a buyer, if you can keep giving them value.
Lisa Larter (38:12):
So that’s it. Thank you for listening to the show. Check out the show notes on my website and I’d love to hear from you. If you’ve written a review, thank you, thank you, thank you. We really appreciate it. And Stephanie, thank you for helping me with this. You are amazing.
Stephanie Rainey (38:27):
Thanks so much for having me. I love being on your show.
Lisa Larter (38:31):
It’s awesome. I love having you on my show. You pick my brain well.
Stephanie Rainey (38:35):
Good. Good.
Lisa Larter (38:36):
Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening.
Lisa Larter (38:39):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of She Talks Business. If you enjoyed the show, you know the drill, leave us a review, tell someone about it and join the conversation on social media. Thanks for listening and until next time remember, done is always better than perfect.
The Problem With Influencers
During a recent conversation with a client of mine, I asked her, “Do you want to be an “influencer” or an expert who has influence?”
She stopped in her tracks and said, “That’s a great question, I want to be an expert who has influence.”